Location of G grandfathers UK birth place

Question

Desperate to find UK birth place of my G paternal grandfather WILLIAM MATTHEWS (1819- 1871 where he died in Jhelum, India.)He emigrated to India and was employed as Patrol Officer at the Salt Department , Lahore & Deputy Collector of Customs. He fathered 7 children , three from his first wife Mary , the others with two different ' native ' women.
No details of his death certificate as to where he was born or raised.
All children were born in India .
Have not been able to establish if he married in UK or abroard.

I would be most grateful for any information .

Regards

Andrew Arthur Matthews

Comments

Do you know anything more about William Matthews?  His name is so common.  e.g.: Do you know the names of his parents or his wife?  Did he marry his first wife Mary in England or India?

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Thanks for your interest Kathy and yes I know quite a lot about William but cannot locate his birth place preventing me from further research into my past.

If you read my other posts on this site it should answer all your points

Best

Andrew

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Andrew, If you create a profile for your father and grandfather and add all of the information you know (dates, locations, siblings, marriages, etc.) -  and then post a question here with their WikiTree ID - then people will be able to help you research more information.

Answer 1

 

William Brown Matthews

1819–1846

Birth 13 MAR 1819 • Exeter, Devon, England

Death JULY 1846 • Barnstaple, Devonshire, United Kingdom

 

Source Citation for England & Wales, Christening Index, 1530-1980

England & Wales, Christening Index, 1530-1980

View Record

Name	William Brown Matthews
Gender	Male
Birth Date	13 Mar 1819
Christening Place	St. Olaves, Exeter, Devon, England
Father	William Matthews
Mother	Mary
Household Members	Name Age William Matthews   Mary Brown   William Brown Matthews   Mary   Richard Brown

This is the only William Matthews that I found who was born in 1819 although this one died in 1846.  There is more info if you think this is the correct person.  Patricia.

 

Comments

Thanks for most prompt response and apologise for confusing info as I mixed up this William 1819 and his first born , William 1846

Answer 2

I'm sure you have tried FIBIS http://www.fibis.org/ to see if there is any details on the birth or baptism of his first child that would be useful to you.

Comments

dear Rosemary

Thanks for most prompt response and yes have tried every thing I can think of - hence asking for any help, advice or suggestions via this site.

Alas on William (1819-1871 ) death certificate ( Jehlum India) only England is given so no help there !!

All 7 of his children were born India,

No details available whether he married first wife Mary in UK or else where.

Answer 3

There are many possibles. We need whatever other information you may have, even if it doesn't seem directly relevant. Also your initial comments are not precise ... people didn't "emigrate" to India from England and get a job with the East India Company or the ICS. They got the job first and were posted abroad. Do you know where in India he was stationed? Names/dates of children? Place of marriage to Mary?

Last name    First name    Born    Record set    Location
Matthews     William        1819    Yorkshire, bishop's transcripts of baptisms    Wharram Percy, Yorkshire (East Riding), England        
MATTHEWS     WILLIAM        1819    Hampshire baptisms    Portsea St Mary, Hampshire, England
MATTHEWS     WILLIAM        1819    Cornwall Baptisms    Roche, Cornwall, England
Matthews     William        1819    England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975    Salisbury                
MATTHEWS     WILLIAM        1819    Hampshire baptisms    Southampton St Mary Extra, Hampshire, England
Matthews     William Brown    1819    England & Wales Non-conformist births and baptisms    London, England                
Matthews     William Brown    1819    England & Wales Non-conformist births and baptisms    Saint Olaves,Exeter                
Matthews     William Brown    1819    England & Wales Non-conformist births and baptisms    Honiton, Devon, England                
Matthews     William Dark    1819    Devon Baptisms    Alwington, Devon, England                
Matthews     William George    1819    England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975    Finsbury, London
MATTHEWS     WILLIAM GREEN    1819    Cornwall Baptisms    Truro - St Mary's, Cornwall, England
Matthews     William Harper    1819    England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975    Holborn, London
Matthews     William James    1819    London, Docklands and East End Baptisms, 1558-1933    St Dunstan, Stepney, London, England
Matthews     William James    1819    England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975    Stepney, London
Matthews     William Joseph    1819    Westminster Baptisms    St Margaret, Westminster, Middlesex, England
Matthews     William Thomas    1819    England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975    Aldersgate, London

Comments

Thanks for such a prompt response as please see my latest posting as I confused details with William his first born !

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William Matthews 1819  7 offspring all born in India,

William 1846

Thomas 1849

Charlotte 1853

Charles 1855

George 1858

Katherine 1862

Richard 1863

Please ask for more info if it will help in the quest

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Here are Thomas and Charlotte:

 Name     Thomas Matthews   
 Gender     Male   
 Christening Date     15 Nov 1854   
 Christening Place     Lahore, Bengal, India   
 Birth Date     15 Nov 1849   
 Father's Name    William Matthews    
 Mother's Name    Mary Matthews 

"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCK-Q7X : 8 December 2014), Thomas Matthews, 15 Nov 1854; citing , reference v 5 p 43; FHL microfilm 528,360

 Name     Charlotte Matthews   
 Gender     Female   
 Christening Date     15 Nov 1854   
 Christening Place     Lahore, Bengal, India   
 Birth Date     29 Jun 1853   
 Father's Name    William Matthews    
 Mother's Name    Mary Matthews 

"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXP-1GM : 8 December 2014), Charlotte Matthews, 15 Nov 1854; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 528,360

There is an earlier William to apparently the same parents but the date is 1840. However this could just be a transcription error for 1846. Notice that all three were actually baptised in 1854.

 Name     William Matthews   
 Gender     Male   
 Christening Date     15 Nov 1854   
 Christening Place     Lahore, Bengal, India   
 Birth Date     25 Oct 1840   
 Father's Name    William Matthews    
 Mother's Name    Mary Matthews 

"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCK-Q7J : 8 December 2014), William Matthews, 15 Nov 1854; citing , reference v 5 p 43; FHL microfilm 528,360

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And here are the rest (probably)

 Name     Charles Matthews   
 Gender     Male   
 Christening Date     28 Feb 1857   
 Christening Place     Kalegagh, Bengal, India   
 Birth Date     23 Jul 1855   
 Father's Name    William Matthews 

"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGSK-H7N : 8 December 2014), Charles Matthews, 28 Feb 1857; citing , reference v 91 p 88; FHL microfilm 498,995

 Name     George Matthews   
 Gender     Male   
 Christening Date     23 Jul 1874   
 Christening Place     India   
 Birth Date     23 Apr 1858   
 Birthplace     Simla, Bengal, India   
 Father's Name    William Matthews    
 Mother's Name    Sophia 

"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGQB-71M : 8 December 2014), George Matthews, 23 Jul 1874; citing Simla, Bengal, India, reference ; FHL microfilm 499,230

Name     Katherine Mary Matthews   
 Gender     Female   
 Christening Date     29 Oct 1876   
 Christening Place     Simla, Bengal, India   
 Birth Date     13 Mar 1862   
 Father's Name    William Matthews 

"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG79-47N : 8 December 2014), Katherine Mary Matthews, 29 Oct 1876; citing , reference v 158 p 62; FHL microfilm 512,337

 Name     Richard Arnold Matthews   
 Gender     Male   
 Christening Date     04 Mar 1877   
 Christening Place     Jhelum, Bengal, India   
 Birth Date     20 Mar 1863   
 Father's Name    William Matthews 

"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG78-ZC3 : 8 December 2014), Richard Arnold Matthews, 04 Mar 1877; citing , reference Film 512-338; FHL microfilm 512,338

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Matthew,

Thanks for this and they are certainly William's children - now need to track down where he was born . There was a magazine article from 1930's ? forget which , that mentioned Richard Arnold who was then a first class rifle shooter ( civilian ) in India and stated his father William 1819 lived in Walmer / Deal Kent but despite there being Matthews's there I have not been able to establish a true link !

The quest continues

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Thank you all for your interest and I now have ` evidence ` that may help others to help me please !

William Matthews 1819 ? - 1871 Jhelum, India was employed By East India Company and by 1850 we know he was Collector of Salt Revenue , Punjab District.

In an India Office letter , 1938 , it states that William was awarded his position through family connection and the influence of the Earl of Llandaff.

To date I have not been able to find how and where this connection was established and would be grateful for any help please.

Best regards

 

Andrew A Matthews

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thanks for all feedback however I am not much further forward regarding tracing GG grandfather place of birth or even where he came from.

Yes he did in fact emigrate and was ‘ given ‘ a job with Salt Revenue ‘ . This fact is recorded in Robert Matthews biog and as recounted to Fleming + Tully in their book Last Children Of The Raj . In a letter to the Earl of Llandaff to the India Office 1938, it was due to his ‘ influence  and family connection ‘ that this job opportunity came about.

This in turn opens  yet another lead to follow, namely what / who  was this family connection?

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Further to my posts a few years ago I now have the following information that I have good reason to believe is correct. It seems my relative William’s surname was MATHEWS . His wife Mary was born 1818, location unknown and died 11 June 1858 , Howrah, India.

The HEIC employment appears to have been granted to William Mathews due to the family connection to the then Earl of Llandaff, Cardiff, Wales. In a 1938 letter between the Earl and the India Office the Earl states that is how WM attained such a position.

There does seem to be family link between my Matthews family and those of Llandaff ( Keepers of the Skull of St. Telio) but remains to be proven. My search continues and any help greatly welcomed.

Answer 4

His will is on Findmypast in the British India Office wills & probate record set for Punjab, Bengal dated 1873.  He appointed his "natural" sons William and Thomas as executors and lists his seven natural children as William, Thomas, Charlotte, Charles, Catherine, George and Richard.

According to a codicil dated 14 May 1868 to his will, the mother of his seven children was called "Junkee" alias "Sadee".

There's no mention of a wife or any "lawful" children in his will - are you sure he married?

Digital images for the baptisms of William, Thomas and Charlotte (at least) are also on Findmypast.  Note that they appear in the Roman Catholic returns which may affect any further research.

Comments

This is a fantastic find particularly so as the will contradicts the accepted narrative. William refers to his seven natural (illegitimate) children implying that Mary, given as the mother on at least two baptisms, was not in fact the mother of any of them. He explicitly names Junkee/Sadee as the mother of all seven - perhaps the two names gave rise to the mistaken belief there were two native women. I wonder if the "Sophia" on one of the later baptisms is a misreading of Sadee? Another point I noticed was that William consistently spells his name Mathews but his children use Matthews and it is underlined in the probate documents to emphasise the fact.

The reference to the Earl of Llandaff is puzzling as the title became extinct in 1833 but their family name was Mathew (with a cadet branch Mathews) and you can find plenty about them online. Henry Matthews 1826-1913, one-time Home Secretary was created Viscount Llandaff due to his family's distant connection with the Mathew family. He would not have been in a position to help until the 1860s though which seems too late. I realized that I'd already heard of Henry as he had the luckless job of being Home Secretary during the Jack the Ripper murders.

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Hi Sheena,

Yes I know for certain that William Mathews ( not MATTHEWS) sired 7 Children, 3 by his wife Mary 1818-1858 and then two more children by one native woman and two by another native woman. It appears now that despite William’s surname having one T all his children were baptised with two T’s. I find this odd especially as William was a relatively educated man however I gather these changes of names happened often.

Thanks for your interest

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Thank you very much Mathew for your comment and interest. I have only just checked this site and see that you posted a year ago ! Apologies for delay.

Anyway  the main and most important area of research is trying to find this family connection to Llandaff. Alas I nor my cousin have actually seen this letter between Earl L and India Office but is recounted in two books, one by the late Robert Matthews in his autobiography STRIKING OUT and in LAST CHILDREN OF THE RAJ by Fleming & Tully. This story stands up as how else would William have had the HEIC job.

Answer 5

Andrew,

i am also searching for answers to William's birth etc.  however, i remember reading something about Mathews connection with Landoff? Langdoff? correct me if I am wrong.

pls reach me at anitapaynter@aol.com ty.

Comments

William Matthew or Mathews was my great great grandfather and I have documentation saying that he was from Walmer in Kent, its in the 1929 Who's who book, it's just Andy and I have not found his birth or baptism registration there. And Anita it was me who told you about Llandaff connection a few months ago when we had contact via family search. I would imagine the Who's who entry would be fairly correct on where he came from so I would not assume he was American. If you found this on family search then anybody with an account can edit details and add things so it does not necessarily make it true. I have this documentation in my family's belongings.