John Gamage (1427)

Born 1427 in Bridgend, Glamorgan, Wales

Ancestors

Husband of Margaret (ferch Morgan) Gamage — married 1447 in Wales

Descendants

Problems/Questions Profile manager: Liz Shifflett [send private message]

Biography

Sir John Gamage, Knight; Lord of Coyty Castle^[1]

John Gamage (fl c. 1450), son of Thomas Gamage and his wife Jonet, (daughter of Sir Gilbert Dennis) married (1) Margred, daughter of Morgan of Radur and Efa ferch Ieuan Gethin, and (2) a daughter of Hughes of Waterton.^[2][3]

John's known children were Morgan and Jane by Margred and a son named William.^[2]

• Morgan Gamage, m "Margred f. Sir Roger Vaughan of Tretwr"^[4]
• Jane Gamage, m "William ap Robert Mathew"^[4][5]
• William Gamage, m "Gwenllian f. Dd. ap Llywelyn"^[6]

Generational Notes

John and his father are given birth years of 1427 and 1404 and also 1385 and 1407. I think probably more reasonable is to pair the father (Thomas) born 1385 with the son John born 1427, given the time & place. In medieval Wales, men usually established themselves before taking a wife, who were often a generation younger (e.g., a 15-year-old bride and 40-year-old groom - a first marriage for both). As of December 2016, WikiTree had 20 years between generations for the male line, which is probably not reasonable: Morgan b1447, John b1427, Thomas b1404, William b1385.

Duplicate(?) profiles for father:

• Thomas Gamage-102, b 1385
• Thomas Gamage-9, b 1404

Comment from Thomas's page: Wikipedia entry for Gilbert Denys says dau. Jane by first wife m Thomas Gamage, but was too old to marry this Thomas Gamage (b 1408), as she was adult in 1422 (executrix of father's will). The article then says dau. Matilda died 1422 (when "husband?" Thomas was 14?). See Wikipedia: Gilbert Denys.

See also Members for Gloucester:^[7]

1390. Nov. Gilbert Denys.

Thomas Berkele.

Sir Gilbert Dennis of Syston, son of Wm. D. was M.P. co. G. 1390, 1395, and Sheriff 1394. He m. (i) Joan Kemeys, and (2) Margaret elder dau. and co-heir of Sir Maurice Russell (see 1402). He and Sir John Drayton held the manor of Dyrham jure uxoris 1416, but Sir Gilbert bought Drayton's moiety, and died seized of the whole manor 1423. Sir Gilbert and his wife Margaret had a suit concerning this manor with Margaret, wife of Morgan Gwyn. The Dennis family possessed for generations extensive property in Ogmore, Glamorganshire. 4 March 1378, protection for Gilbert Denys and 53 others, in the retinue of John King of Castile, Duke of Lancaster. (Ry?ner.)

Paternal Timeline

guessing father to be 22 at birth of son, with 1408 as fairly certain start date works but seems too "pat" (married 21, child born at 22):

b 1408: Thomas Gamage (son of William and Mary) [DWB, Turner-Thomas] ->

[b 1430] John and Margaret ferch Morgan (WikiTree shows 1427) ->

[b 1452] Morgan and Elinor/Margred Vaughan (WikiTree shows 1447/1457) ->

[b 1474] m 1497: Thomas Gamage m Margred St John [marriage settlement 1497, Richardson][Knighted 1513, DWB] (WikiTree shows 1476, sister Jane b 1485)

guessing father to be 30 at birth of son, with 1408 as fairly certain start date, makes lineage impossible:

b 1408: Thomas Gamage (son of William and Mary) ->

[b 1438] John and Margaret ferch Morgan->

[b 1468] Morgan and Elinor/Margred Vaughan ->

[b 1498] m 1497: Thomas Gamage m Margred St John, marriage settlement 1497

guessing father to be 25 at birth of son, with 1408 as fairly certain start date is better, but marriage settlement is at age 14:

b 1408: Thomas Gamage (son of William and Mary) ->

[b 1433] John and Margaret ferch Morgan->

[b 1458] Morgan and Elinor/Margred Vaughan ->

[b 1483] m 1497: Thomas Gamage m Margred St John, marriage settlement 1497

Consider the Children

• Morgan... not bad (see paternal line)

• Margaret Gamage, married William Mathew. This is the problem. From above, guess for father is [b 1430] (John Gamage and Margaret ferch Morgan - WikiTree shows 1427 for both with no death date for John & Margaret died 1468).

WikiTree family group sheet for parents shows brother Morgan b 1447 (although above timeline arrives at [b 1452]), Margaret born 1460, and sister Jana born 1472 (4 years after death date given for mother)

William Mathew (Margaret's husband) also has problems:

Son(s) of Robert Mathew and... yet another problem

William b 1455 (son of Mawd)

brother William (son of Alice) b 1475

and three wives:

Margaret (unknown) b 1439

Margaret (Gamage) b 1429

Margaret (Gamage) b 1460

Research Notes

• Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry
  • Vol III, p 58, GAMAGE #18: Oldest Gamage mentioned that I could find in Ricahrdson: Thomas Gamage married Margaret Saint John "by settlement dated 1497 (as his first wife) ". Thomas was "son and heir of Morgan Gamage, of Coity, Glamorgan, by Eleanor, daughter of Roger Vaughan of Tretower, Breconshire, Wales." (WikiTree has Morgan as the son of this John, but that information is not included in Richardson)

• Sir Author E. Turner-Thomas (Celtic Royal Genealogy:
  • John Gamage: John Gamage, of Coity, who m Margaret, dau and coheirss of Morgan Llewellyn ap Evan ap Llewellyn, of Radir, and had a son and heir named Morgan. [Annals and Antiquities of Cymru II:579]
  • Shows parents b 1408 (Thomas Gamage & Matilda Dennis); Thomas's parents as William (b 1381) & Mary Rodburgh (b 1386)
  • Shows no date for son Morgan or grandson Thomas (the one Richardson shows with 1497 marriage settlement)
  • After the 1408 dates for both both Thomas & Matilda, Turner-Thomas gives no other dates in paternal line that I found (from Thomas b 1408 to Robert Gamage who married Joan Champernon).

• Dictionary of Welsh Biography (DWB), Gamage family of Coity
  • Thomas, heir to William Gamage by Mary, daughter of Sir Thomas Rodborough, b 1408 (aged 11 at his father's death [in 1419])
  • Thomas married Matilda, daughter of Sir Gilbert Dennis, and had a son, John
  • John married "a Welsh heiress, Margaret, daughter of Llywelyn ap Ieuan Llywelyn of Radyr"
  • "John Gamage's son, MORGAN, m. Eleanor, daughter of Sir Roger Vaughan of Tretower (see p. 1,000). With him the Gamages are caught up by the Welsh bardic tradition. Morgan Gamage was receiving the issues of Coety in 1488; Rhisiart ap Rhys wrote an elegy upon his death. His son, THOMAS GAMAGE, was knighted in 1513."

• Bartrum - Gamage 1
  • William Gamage m Mary Rodborough - William d 1419 (DWB)
  • son Thomas married Jonet Dennis - Thomas b 1408 (DWB)
  • son John married Margaret ferch Morgan - no dates
  • son Morgan married Margaret ferch Vaughan - died 1488 (DWB)

DWB = Dictionary of Welsh Biography

Sources

1. ↑ Entered by Richard Ragland.
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1} #Bartrum
3. ↑ Profile for Matilda Dennis that had been attached to this profile as his mother was removed.
4. ↑ ^{4.0 4.1} Bartrum: Gamage 1
5. ↑ see also Bartrum: Gwaithfoed 5
6. ↑ Bartrum: Gamage 3
7. ↑ "The parliamentary history of the county of Gloucester, including the cities of Bristol and Gloucester, and the boroughs of Cheltenham, Cirencester, Stroud, and Tewkesbury, from the earliest times to the present day, 1213-1898" (see p 29)

• The Bartrum Project, digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum (mirrored from the defunct Cadair site by Geni: Bartrum Genealogical Project - free login required to access the charts). See additional information about Cadair in G2G.
  • Gamage 1
  • Iestyn 19
  • Iestyn 6