Payn Turberville (abt. 1065 - 1129)

Ancestors

Descendants

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Biography

"1094. Paen Twrbil (Payn de Turberville) led his hosts as far as Cardiff, and began to storm the castle. And when Robert Fitz Hamon saw that, he asked the cause, and Paen Twrbil shewed it, to wit, that the Welsh desired to have back the rights and primitive customs of their country, and the laws of Hywel the Good, and to have their lands free; and so great was the host, that Robert saw best to do that and satisfy the Welsh; and then tranquillity was established in the land." ^[1]

Research Notes

Knight: Payn de Turberville was a "knight of Robert FitzHamon", according to text in the profile (edited 27 May 2023), which also said: "This lineage is from Arabella Lyman Gamage Morton, Descendants of John Gamage of Ipswich, Mass, 1906, pp. 4, 5, at GoogleBooks" (but no link).

Estimated Date: Born "about 1065" was entered as a guess based on estimates for his wife and son (c1080 and before 1100, respectively). It meshes well with the text for this profile, which had an unsourced date of "fl 1089" (when he would have been 24 - "fl" means "flourished").

Bartrum: This Payn de Turberville (living 1126-9) and his wife Sara ferch Moragn head the "Turberville 1" Bartrum chart.^[2]

Their children:

• Simon (s.p.)^[2]
• Gilbert,^[2] father of
  • Payne, living 1202, d. c. 1207^[2]
• Hugh^[2]

Iestyn 1, the chart showing Sara as daughter of Morgan ap Meurig ap Gwrgn ab Ithel has "fictitious?" below the name of her husband, Payn Turberville (not sure if the note pertains to the husband or to Sara - no indication of doubt on Turberville-1).^[3]

Sara's lineage given by Bartrum - "Morgan ap Meurig ap Gwrgn ab Ithel"^[3] - is at odds with the lineage that was given in her profile - Morgan ap Megryg ap Griffith ap Jestyn ap Gwrgan, King of Glamorgan and Prince of the Seven Cantredes of Saluria.^[4]

Iolo Manuscripts

The Iolo Manuscripts, a set of 18th century materials largely fabricated by Iolo Morganwg, say this about him:

"1. Paen Twrberfil a briodes Assar ferch ag unig blentyn ag o hynny Etifeddes Morgan ab Meyryg ab Gruffydd ab Iestyn ab Gwrgan Brenin Morganwg a Thywysog Saith Cantref Essyllwg sef yw hynny yr holl dir o Bont Caerloyw hyd afon Tywy." ^[5]

Notes

The following text was included as "Notes" in the De Turberville-36 profile and I have left it as a separate section when I merged that profile with Turberville-33, as I wasn't sure how to incorporate it with the other information. ~ Noland-165

Robert fitz Hamon died about 1107, and this first Payn is said to have been a knight of his, as well as the one who married Assar, daughter of Morgan ap Meuric.

"William Gamage, of Rogiad, who, as already shown, m. Sara, or Assar, dau. and co-h. of Pain de Turberville of that place, whose ancestor had m., in the time of Fitzhamon, the dau. and h. of Morgan ap Meurig, of the line of Iestyn ap Gwrgant." ^[6]

The Iolo Manuscripts include a son Simon, who has a son Payn, who is the Payn, father of the next Gilbert; however, Iolo Morganwg is not generally considered to be reliable, so this should probably be disregarded without independent corroboration.

"2. Syr Simwnt Twrbil ab Syr Paen ag Assar Ferch Forgan, efe a wnaeth yr Hen Gastell y sydd ym Mhen y Bont ar Ogwyr."

"3. Syr Paen yr ail ab Syr Simmwnt. ai wraig ef oedd Mallt, ferch Morgam Gam, ab Morgan, ab Caradoc ab Iestyn ab Gwrgan."

The Dictionary of Welsh Biography, on the other hand, has a son Simon, but they have him dying without issue, and his brother Gilbert inheriting, making GIlbert the son of this Payn. ^[7]

The winning of Glamorgan: Documents ^[8]

"4th To Sir Pain Turberville he gave the Castle and Mannor of Coity, with the Mannors of New Castle and Court Coleman for his Granary and provisions. He built the New Castle of Coyty and with it a fair Church and village, and the old Castle he kept for a place of store and provisions which he sold to all that wanted, and for this he and his heirs kept high market once a week till the Castle was demolished by Sir Richard Beauchamp. After that open market was kept in the high way near by, and it so remains to this day. This Pain Turberville married Sara Daughter of Myrig (fn. 14) the Son of Iestyn Lord of Coyty, and so obtained a right of inheritance in the place, and for this Reason he would never hold of the Chief Lord of Glamorgan nor render him fee and tribute. Which caused quarrelling, but Pain assembled the Welsh together, who loved him more than all the other Lords and took his part. And so they beset Cardiff Castle and broke into it, and Sir Robert was struck by him on the head with his fist till he was taken for dead, and he never had his right senses afterward and it did cause madness at Last of which he died. Upon this it was agreed between Sir Robert with other Lords and Pain, that he should hold his Castles and Mannors of Coyty and New Castle and Court Coleman of himself, and pay no tribute to the Chief Lord of Glamorgan, but that he should sit in Court as the Substantiate of the Welsh Franklens and Lord of Coyty, with one right of speech for himself and another for the Country. And so it was with his heirs and Remained till the time of Sir John Beauchamp when they Lost the Royalty sole and were subdued to hold of the Chief Lord. For these Reasons, that is of his courage and resoluteness, was Pain Turberville called Pain the Devil. (fn. 15)"

"After all had been endowed with Lands for their service, Pain Turbervil Asked sir Robert where was his share, to which Sir Robert answered here are men and here are Arms, go get it where you can. So Pain Turbervill with the men went to Coity and sent to Morgan a messenger to ask if he would yield up the Castle. Upon this Morgan brought out his Daughter Sara in his hand and passing thro the army with his sword in his Right hand came to Pain Turbill and told him if he would marry his Daughter and so come like an honest Man into his Castle that he would yield it to him quickly. And if not said he, let not the blood of any of our men be lost, but let this sword and arm of mine and those of yours decide who shall call this Castle his own. Upon this Pain Turberville drew his sword and took it by the blade in his left hand and gave it to Morgan and with his right hand embraced the Daughter, and after settling evry matter to the liking of both sides he went with her to church and married her, and so came to the Lordship by true right of possession."

Sources

1. ↑ "Translated extracts from Welsh and Latin records: Texts," in Cardiff Records: Volume 5, ed. John Hobson Matthews (Cardiff: Cardiff Records Committee, 1905), 284-304. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [1].
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4} Bartrum's chart, Turberville-1 (accessed 27 May 2023, free Geni login required).
3. ↑ ^{3.0 3.1} Bartrum's chart, Iestyn-1 (Geni link accessed 27 May 2023).
4. ↑ "Notes from external profile" (Generated by WikiTree AGC; no apparent source of or for the external profile shown in the AGC version of her profile).
5. ↑ Iolo Manuscripts: A Selection of Ancient Welsh Manuscripts, in Prose and Verse, from the Collection Made by the Late Edward Williams, Iolo Morganwg, for the Purpose of Forming a Continuation of the Myfyrian Archaiology; and Subsequently Proposed as Materials for a New History of Wales, p 27 [2]
6. ↑ Annals and Antiquities of the Counties and County Families of Wales, Containing a Record of All Ranks of the Gentry, Their Lineage, Alliances, Appointments, Armorial Ensigns, and Residences ... p 567 [3]
7. ↑ The Dictionary of Welsh Biography: TURBERVILLE family of Coity, Glam.link
8. ↑ "The winning of Glamorgan: Documents," in Cardiff Records: Volume 4, ed. John Hobson Matthews (Cardiff: Cardiff Records Committee, 1903), 6-47. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [4].

• The Bartrum Project, digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum (mirrored from the Cadair site by Geni: Bartrum Genealogical Project - free login required to access the charts).
  Note: Cadair home page and the Bartrum Project's search page were captured by the Wayback Machine, but, apparently, it did not capture any of the pages for the charts. The Bartrum charts are still available online here, but not as a searchable database (as of 2023). See this G2G post.
• Domesday Reloaded: Coity Castle
• CastlesFortsBattles.co.uk [defunct]: Coity Castle - www.castlesfortsbattles.co.uk/south_wales/coity_castle.html
  • https://web.archive.org/web/20210701000000*/http://www.castlesfortsbattles.co.uk/south_wales/coity_castle.html Wayback Machine capture (did not load for me, 31 May 2023, but might be my computer)

Acknowledgments

This profile was created through the import of Acrossthepond.ged on 21 February 2011.