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Joan (Vivonne) de Vivonne (abt. 1251 - 1314)

Joan de Vivonne formerly Vivonne
Born about in Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Daughter of and
Sister of , and
Wife of — married after 10 Mar 1262 in Englandmap
Wife of — married after Apr 1264 in Englandmap
Wife of — married before 3 Jan 1279 in Englandmap
Descendants descendants
Mother of and
Died at about age 63 in Englandmap
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Profile last modified | Created 3 Apr 2011
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Contents

Biography

Birth and Parents

Joan de Vivonne, eldest daughter and co-heiress of William de Forz (or de Vivonne), Knt., of Chewton, Somerset, and Maud de Ferrers, was born about 1251 (aged 8 in 1259).[1][2] Her birthplace is unknown as her father held lands in Somerset, Dorset, Surrey, Wiltshire, etc.[3]
When her father William died in 1259, he had four underage daughters: Joan, Sybil, Mabel and Cecily. As their inheritance was subject to the feudal system of wardship, the children were likely delivered by their mother into the king's household, where they would stay until they married. On 2 August 1259 the custody of William’s estates was granted to four knights, including Ingram de Percy, who was given the marriage of the eldest daughter, Joan.[4][5]

Marriages and Children

Joan married first after 10 March 1262 to Ingram de Percy, Knt., King's yeoman, younger son of William de Percy of Topcliffe, Yorkshire, by his second wife Ellen de Balliol. They had no issue and Ingram died testate, shortly before 10 October 1262,[1] when Joan once again became a ward of court and her marriage was granted to Henry III’s queen, Eleanor of Provence.[6]
Joan married second to her step-brother, Aimery de Rochechouart (Aimery X), son and heir apparent of Aimery IX de Rochechouart, Knt., Vicomte of Rochechouart in Poitou, and his first wife, Jeanne de Tonnay.[1][7] Their marriage was contracted in April 1264, at the same time Joan's mother married Aimery's father. Joan and Aimery were recorded as married in the Somerset Pleas of 15 July 1269.[4] Joan and Aimery had two children:
  • Aimery, Vicomte of Rochechouart, seigneur of Croussiere, Brigueil and Lriflancs,[1] lived to adulthood, but died in 1306 without issue and the viscountcy passed to his uncle, Simon[4]
  • Jeanne, wife of Pons de Mortagna, Vicomte of Aunay,[1] lived to adulthood, but died without issue[4]
Aimery died before his father wrote his 25 June 1283 will.[7] His date of death is unknown, but he was living in 1269, when he appears in the Somerset plea rolls, and died before 3 January 1279, when Joan was recorded as remarried.[4][8]
Joan married third, as his second wife, Sir Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt., son of Peter Fitz Herbert and Alice Fitz Robert, before 3 January 1279[2] and probably as early as 1272.[7] They had four sons and two daughters:
  • Peter Fitz Reynold,[9] Knt., born c. 1274, died 18 November 1322, married first Ela Martel and second to Maud ____[2]
  • Reynold Fitz Reynold,[9] married first to Joan Martel, second to Margaret _____ and third to Alice Crubbe or Cribbe[2]
  • Matthew,[9] was living in 1286[2]
  • William (clerk), was living in 1302[2]
  • Isabel,[9] was living in 1286[2]
  • Beatrice, was living in 1326 (petition)[2]
Reynold had seven children from his first marriage to Alice ____. He also had an illegitimate son, David de Pontesbury (alias David Fitz Reynold) with an unknown mistress. In 1282 Reynold renounced his concubine "with an oath to go to the Holy Land, if he relapsed".[2]
Sir Reynold Fitz Peter died testate 4 (or 5) May 1286.[2] His son John (from his first marriage) was his heir.[10]

Lands and Other

In 1289, Joan made a claim against William de Brewes for certain properties in Wiltshire as being her dower.[2]
As seen in entries in the Patent Rolls for 1290, 1292, 1301, and 1307, after Reynold died, Joan spent much of her time in France.[11]
In 1294, the manor of Bedhampton, Hampshire, which Joan held in dower, was taken into the king's hands, but she seems to have recovered the manor before her death.[2]
By 1302, Joan owned one quarter of her mother's lands at Luton, Bedfordshire, which passed to her son, Reynold.[12]
17 October 1302: "Joan de Vivonia, one of the daughters and heiresses of Maud de Kyme, ....to demand and receive her dower of the issues of the county of Kildar in Ireland, which William de Vescy, deceased, the late justiciary, occupied against the said Maud and Agatha de Mortuo Mari, her sister, which issues the king still holds in his hands."[13]

Death

Joan died on 1 June 1314.[2] An Inquisition Post Mortem by writ dated 8 June 1314 included properties in Bedfordshire, Southampton, Essex, Berkshire, Somerset and Dorset. Certain lands passed to Herbert (son of her husband's main heir, John, who died in 1310). Lands in Somerset and Dorset passed to her sons Reginald and Peter.[14]

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 Douglas Richardson. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham. 2nd edition. (Salt Lake City, UT: the author, 2011), vol. I, pages 250-252, BONVILLE 4, Joan de Vivonne.
  2. ↑ 2.00 2.01 2.02 2.03 2.04 2.05 2.06 2.07 2.08 2.09 2.10 2.11 2.12 Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham. (Salt Lake City, UT: the author, 2013), Vol. II, pages 622-625, FITZ HERBERT 5, Reynold Fitz Peter.
  3. ↑ Richardson, Royal Ancestry. Vol. IV, pages 8-9, MALET 3, William de Forz.
  4. ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 Margaret Schooling. "13th Century Marriages Between the Anglo-Norman and Poitou Families of Vivonne, Ferrers and Rochechouart", published in Foundations (2012) 4: 21-35.
  5. ↑ Calendar of Patent Rolls. Henry III, vol. 5, p. 36.
  6. ↑ Calendar of Patent Rolls. Henry III, vol. 6, p. 735,
  7. ↑ 7.0 7.1 7.2 Douglas Richardson 2010 post in soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup "Complete Peerage Addition: Joan de Vivonne, wife of Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt.", online at SGM, citing Roccafortis, Bulletin de la Société de Géographie de Rochefort, 3e série, tome IV, n° 25, janvier 2000, p. 149-153, viewable on Wayback Machine (accessed 19 December 2022).
  8. ↑ 'Close Rolls, Edward I: January 1279', in Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I. Volume 1, 1272-1279, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1900), pp. 551-555. British History Online.
  9. ↑ 9.0 9.1 9.2 9.3 'Close Rolls, Edward I: August 1286', in Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I: Volume 2, 1279-1288, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1902), pp. 424-432. British History Online: 1286 "Enrolment of deed of Joan de Vivon', late the wife of Sir Reginald son of Peter", named children Peter, Reginald, and Matthew, and Isabella.
  10. ↑ Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and Other Analogous Documents Preserved in the Public Record Office. Vol. 2. London: Printed for H.M. Stationery Off., 1904. Online at Archive.org, pages 364-366: #606, Reginald son of Peter.
  11. ↑ Calendar of Patent Rolls. 1290, 1292, 1301, 1307.
  12. ↑ 'Parishes: Luton', in A History of the County of Bedford. Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1908), pp. 348-375. British History Online.
  13. ↑ Calendar of the Close Rolls, Edward I, Vol IV, 1296-1302. London, 1906. Online at Archive.org, page 603.
  14. ↑ Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and Other Analogous Documents Preserved in the Public Record Office. Vol. 5. London: Printed for H.M. Stationery Off., 1908. Online at Archive.org, pages 274-275: #485, Joan de Vivonia.
See also:
  • Calendar of Fine Rolls Edward II. Vol II. 1307-1319. Volume 2, London: HMSO, 1911-1962. Archive.org, 214-215: 1314, Oct 17 Lincoln dower lands.
  • Weis, Frederick Lewis. The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215. 5th Edition. Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1999. Online at Ancestry.com, pages 235-236, Line 59A, #4.
  • Weis, Frederick Lewis. Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 8th ed. (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 2004), page 251, Line 261, #32. Online at Ancestry.com.

Acknowledgements

Click the Changes tab for details of edits to this profile. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Magna Carta Project

This profile was developed for the Magna Carta Project on 29 June 2021 by Thiessen-117 and approved for the Project by Michael Cayley on 3 July 2021.
Joan de Vivonne is in a badged trail from Magna Carta Surety Baron William Malet to John Baynard (MCA I:126-128 BAYNARD): see the trail HERE.
Joan de Vivonne also appears in unbadged trails (needing work) identified by the Magna Carta Project from Magna Carta Surety Baron William Malet to the following Gateway Ancestor:
  • William Crymes (MCA II:4-7 CRYMES): trail has not yet been developed on WikiTree. See the trail HERE.
See Base Camp for more information about identified Magna Carta trails and their status. See the project's glossary for project-specific terms, such as a "badged trail".




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Comments: 11

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Linda Mitchell
You've got a lot of erroneous information on this page. I have edited the Wikipedia page that relates to Joan but I don't know if you switched it back or not--haven't checked. Joan was never married to either Ingram de Percy or Aimery de Rochechouard. Her MOTHER, Maud Ferrers, married Aimery as her third husband and her SISTER, Sibyl, married Aimery's son, Guy de Rochechouard. Although Ingram was granted Joan's marriage by Henry III, Maud was able to quash all the royal choices for her daughters and she arranged the marriages herself, because she had right of first refusal on them. I refer you to my book, Linda Mitchell, Portraits of Medieval Women, p. 24, and notes 37-40.
posted by Linda Mitchell
Cochoit-2 Joe Cochoit
I haven't spent more than a few minutes looking into this, however, the information you are giving is contradicted by some well-respected sources so we will need better sources than your book to make changes. Specifically I am referencing:
  • Margaret Schooling. "13th Century Marriages Between the Anglo-Norman and Poitou Families of Vivonne, Ferrers and Rochechouart", published in Foundations (2012) 4: 21-35. (Margaret Schooling is historian living near Rochechouart, publishing in a peer-reviewed online journal).

This says Maud Ferrers married Aimery IX Rochechouart, and that her daughter Joan married Aimery X Rochechouart. That Joan married Aimery X Rochechouart is proven by an entry in the Somerset Pleas "Emery de Roche Chaward, son of Emery de Roche Chaward, and Joan his wife, Sibyl, Mabel and Cecily, the daughters and heirs of William de Fortibus" (there are other sources which also confirm this marriage).

posted by Joe Cochoit
edited by Joe Cochoit
Cochoit-2 Joe Cochoit
See also this SGM discussion on the family:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/YhuRQp9oXFg

posted by Joe Cochoit
Cayley-55 Michael Cayley
Linda, I am not sure whether you are under a misapprehension about the relationship between Wikipedia and WikiTree, but they are completely independent of each other.

There are good primary sources, cited by Margaret Schooling, for Joan's marriage to Ingram de Percy. One of them is that on 10 October 1262 Eleanor of Provence was granted "the marriage of the eldest daughter and one of the heirs of William de Fortibus, late the wife of Ingram de Percy." Calendar of the Patent Rolls, A. D. 1266-1272, HMSO 1913, p. 725, viewable on Familysearch (image 743) - https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/578791/?offset=0#page=743&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=. That gives a primary source that the marriage took place, and was not just envisaged.

There were three Aimerys who are relevant: the one Joan married, quite often referred to as Aimery X; his father, often referred to as Aimery IX, who became the third husband of Joan's mother (they appear to have had no children together); and his and Joan's son, often referred to as Aimery XI. It is especially important to distinguish Joan's husband from his father of the same name. They are easily confused.

As Joe says, there are very good sources for Joan's marriage to Aimery X. Besides the Somerset Pleas record, there is also a 1304 record in French archives of an agreement between Aimery X's children Aimery XI and Jeanne which refers to Jeanne de Vivonne as their mother, and there are other primary sources cited in the Margaret Schooling article Joe mentions. These primary sources contradict what you suggest.

You might want to look very carefully at the Margaret Schooling article, and the primary sources it cites.

You might also want to look at an article viewable on the Wayback Machine: "LES PREMIERS SEIGNEURS DE TONNAY-CHARENTE DE LA FAMILLE DE ROCHECHOUART (1277-1393)" by Jacques Duguet (Bulletin de la Société de Géographie de Rochefort, 3e série, tome IV, n° 25, janvier 2000, p. 149-153). This gives a digest of some key terms of the marriage contract, dated 28 April 1264, of Joan's mother Maud with her third husband, Aimery IX. The marriage contract provides for the marriage of Joan with Aimery X, oldest son of Aimery IX, and for her younger sister Sybil's marriage with Guy, second son of Aimery IX. See https://web.archive.org/web/20051111153838/http://seucaj.ifrance.com/rochechouart.htm.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
Linda Mitchell
To you and Michael Cayley: I am a professional medieval historian specializing in British aristocratic families, women, and gender. I have published extensively on the heirs to the Marshal inheritance. I can safely say that most of the work you cite is problematic because it is repeating errors established back in the19th century by antiquarians whose work was often riddled with errors. I directed you to my book because the notes and citations demonstrate the level of research I do. I can tell you that the Somerset Pleas, like the Staffordshire extracts of pleas, are useful only up to a point. I can also tell you that in the original documents--which I have read in their original rolls at the National Archives (even before its name was changed, as I was a Fulbright Scholar doing research at the Public Record Office when it was still at Chancery Lane)--clerks got very confused when dealing with complicated genealogies and often had to correct their own work. If you don't read Latin and Medieval French, and if you don't have experience in paleography (which I happen to teach to graduate students at the university from which I just retired after a career of some 37 years of higher education teaching), then you can't read the actual documents. And as a result, you can't figure out when amateur antiquarians and the editors of The Complete Peerage and other researchers from the 19th century got it wrong or made assumptions (based, I must say, on their presumptions that women were unimportant historically) that were erroneous. I am not going to argue with you, and I am not going to continue to post on this site because I really don't have time to do this.
posted by Linda Mitchell
flagged by Michael Cayley
Cochoit-2 Joe Cochoit
Linda,

I appreciate you trying to correct WikiTree. As an acedemician, I’m sure you understand our desire to work from primary and high quality secondary sources. I didn’t even say you were wrong, I was just pointing out that we had good sources which support what is currently on WikiTree. We are happy to make corrections if you can show us why these sources are wrong. We can’t just take your word for it, no matter your credentials. If you would like to discuss the problem and the errors, I suggest you start a G2G where the evidence can be discussed properly.

posted by Joe Cochoit
Thiessen-117 Traci Thiessen
UPDATE: DONE 2 July 2021

I will soon be developing this profile for the Magna Carta Project as a part of trails between Gateway John Baynard, Gent. and sureties Saher de Quincy and William Malet.

posted by Traci Thiessen
edited by Traci Thiessen
Thompson-14289 Maryann (Thompson) Hurt
De Vivona-4 and Vivonne-3 appear to represent the same person because: *Born about 1251
  • Wife of Reginald
  • Died 1 Jun 1314

Please merge into Vivonne-3

posted by Maryann (Thompson) Hurt
Tim Perry
De Vivonia-10 and Vivonne-3 are not ready to be merged because: Seems to be the same person, but a large date conflict to be resolved.
posted by Tim Perry
Noland-165 Liz (Noland) Shifflett
text doesn't say anything about children, and as far as I can tell, the only attached profile that's her child is Peter. Magna Carta Ancestry, Vol I, p 250, has Sir Reynold Fitz Peter as her third husband, his previous wife Alice _____ the mother of Eleanor (wife of John de Mohun & William Martin) & Katherine, wife of John Prichard) - and others, including Alice. WikiTree has her mother as Alice Stanford, but I can't find any support for Stanford as her maiden name. Still, it might be better to switch the mom for Katherine & Eleanor to Stanford-133 rather than keeping them as Joan's children.
posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett

Rejected matches › Joan (FitzPiers) de Verdun (abt.1183-bef.1205)

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