Harald the Black and his relatives are a tangled mess [closed]

+26 votes
1.1k views


Wikitree currently has at least four profiles for Harald the Black, who was father of Godred Crovan King of Dublin and the Isles (died 1095), and a whole morass of duplicated and contradictory relatives:

The first two Haralds are shown with the same mother, Unknown Of_Islay-1 and an unmerged match of the two profiles was made in 2018.

As well as the four Haralds, these pairs clearly each represent one person:

  • Godfred Haraldsson-213 and Godred Haraldson-2.
  • Harald Sitricsson-1 and Harald Sigtryggrsson-1, who are both shown as sons of Sigtryggr Ivarsson-24.

The Wikipedia article on Godred Crovan has a section on his familial origins which gives a densely-referenced summary of the recent scholarly literature. It is clear that although Harald the Black's ancestry is imprecisely known, his father was neither Guðrøðr Haraldsson (King of the Isles), nor a son of Eirik Blodøks, but rather he was closely related in the male line to Ímar mac Arailt King of Dublin (Norse form Ivarr Haraldsson, no Wikitree profile that I can find) thought to be son of Aralt mac Amlaib/Harald Olaffsson-381).

I have found no statements about the identity of Harald the Black's mother.

Clare Downham's book Viking Kings of Britain and Ireland : The Dynasty of Ivarr to A. D. 1014 deals in detail with Guðrøðr Haraldsson in the context of dynastic succession but does not mention his wife, although her identity would be relevant to the book's topic. Reviewers have commended this book for its exhaustive coverage of the relevant documents, so I suppose that there is no written reference to Guðrøðr's wife.

The evidence for a woman from Islay being the wife of a son of Eirik Blodøks I do not know. Qualtrough's Kings of Man, which is cited on the profile of Haraldsson-213, says Godred Crovan "was the son of King Harald the Black of Islay and grandson of Godred Erikson (a son of Erik Bloodaxe by his marriage to the “Heiress of Islay”)." (page 8) This would imply that Harald the Black's wife rather than his mother was the daughter of Gudrød Eriksen-308. Qualtrough gives as his source The History of the Isle of Man under the Norse, or Now through a glass darkly by G.V.C. Young, which I have not yet been able to check.

Currently Wikitree shows Consort Norway Ragnfredsdatter-1 (abt. 1000) as wife of Harald the Black Guðrøðarson-2, mother of Godred Crovan, and granddaughter of Eirik Blodøks through his son Rangfred (Eiriksson) Eriksson (0930 - 0970), but born 30 years after her father's death! Clearly she is intended to be the same person as UNKNOWN Ragnfredsdatter-4 and Unknown Ragnfredsdotter-1

Wikitree also has two sons of Eirik Blodøks who appear to be duplicates, along with their wives:


PROPOSAL

  • the four Harald the Black profiles be detached from any parents and merged as Haraldr. The LNAB should be Unknown, unless there is evidence of his father's name, in which case the patronymic is Guðrøðsson.
  • Godfred Haraldsson-213 and Godred Haraldson-2 be merged as Guðrøðr Haraldsson.
  • Harald Sitricsson-1  and Harald Sigtryggrsson-1 be merged as Haraldr Sigtryggsson.
  • the two Gudrøds sons of Eirik Blodøks be merged as Guðrøðr Eiriksson, and the titles relating to the Isle of Man be removed.
  • Heiress Of_Islay-2 be merged into Unknown Of_Islay-1.
  • Rangfred Eiriksson-44 and Ragnfred av Norge-28 should be merged into Ragnfreðr Eiriksson.
  • Consort Norway Ragnfredsdatter, UNKNOWN Ragnfredsdatter-4, Unknown Ragnfredsdotter-1 and Rangfredsdotter Unknown-272543 are all merged as Unknown RagnfreðsdóttirOR
  • if Young's Now through a glass darkly has good evidence for it, instead of merging those four into Unknown Ragnfreðsdóttir they be merged and transferred to be daughter of Guðrøðr Eiriksson and Unknown Of_Islay and renamed Unknown Guðrøðsdóttir.

In each case hoping I have the correct Old Norse forms when proposing a different merged name (underlined).

Please discuss and tell me about any better or contradictory evidence.

If folks agree to this there will need to be quite a bit of discussion of what goes on the merged profiles, and what the estimated dates should be.



 

WikiTree profile: Godred Crovan Haraldsson
closed with the note: Thanks to Valerie and Richard these profiles are now all suitably merged.
in Genealogy Help by Andrew Millard G2G6 Pilot (117k points)
closed by Andrew Millard

7 Answers

+6 votes
 
Best answer
All under control now, merges done, some pages written, suitable categories organized, a very interesting corner of history to get lost in. A big thank you to Richard for helping promptly when asked.
by Valerie Willis G2G6 Pilot (116k points)
selected by Andrew Millard
+16 votes
Andrew,

I completely agree that something should be done to resolve this issue. While I am not Pre-1500 certified, nor am I able to access the sources you referenced, my suggestion is to completely revamp each of these individuals, but do it by committee. I would solicit a few "volunteers" to tackle and resolve this complex issue.

According to Wikitree, I am very distantly related to all but one of these people so I suspect there may be some entanglement in subsequent descendants as well.

Good luck!
by Ken Parman G2G6 Pilot (121k points)
+16 votes
Part of the problem is that someone has confused Harald the Black with Harald Grafeldar ("Greycloak"), King of Norway, who was the son of Eirik Bloodyaxe, King of Norway. These are clearly two different Haralds.
by Jared Olar G2G6 (7.8k points)
edited by Jared Olar

Thanks for pointing that out. Harald Greycloak is clearly separated on Wikitree, but it would be worth adding a note about this to his profile and the eventual single Harald the Black profile.

+11 votes

Yes this is a mess, but I think we need some better sources before we go forward. I'll see if there is anything in the Irish Annals. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Nordic sources than I, see help out.

I started a free space at Space:Harald_the_Black_and_his_relatives to add notes and for those that don't have the pre-1500 badge you can add your research to that page or here on this G2G.

by Richard Devlin G2G6 Pilot (506k points)
I'd like to have another go at sorting out this generation or so of Scandinavians abroad. I found the best way to identify such profiles was to link them first in dated historic events such as the category for the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066, then worry about how to spell their names. In this way, it is obvious that Guðrøðarson-2 - Harald "the Black" is misplaced, and so on.

Have proposed a merge for Sitricsson-1 & Sigtryggrsson-1 - This individual should be a descendant of the Uí Ímair & the Vikings of Jorvik/York

This "whole tangled mess" is the result of historians trying to link the viking kings of the ninth-century Irish annals to the genealogy of the kings of Vestfold in Norway - it doesn't work.

Thanks Valerie

Had a look at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Haraldsson-5 - Eirik Blodøks Haraldsson, put the coin images into context & expanded the bio time-line entered there - how far should I go? These people are well covered elswhere online, I think the best way to tackle this problem is to write up a simple history, linking associated WT profiles as they turn up in an individual's story.

I like that idea, Valerie. As you very well know, the Irish Vikings research can go on forever.
Will do that then -

Much of what is currently on the profile, looks to be copy/paste from various sources, some of which aren't even cited.  Copying text from other sources isn't recommended on WikiTree, and I would support a shorter history with links to other sites for more information.

+8 votes
https://www.wikitree/wiki/space:Adams

There is a list of sources toward the bottom of the Adams page that may help in your investigation
by Al Adams G2G6 (8.9k points)
Your link is broken. I think you mean this: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Adams_Name_Study#Sources

Thanks for pointing it out.
+9 votes

Would there be any objection to my merging the collection of biographical material posted to https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Haraldsson-5 - Eirik Blodøks Haraldsson ? I intend to retain all the sources linked.

by Valerie Willis G2G6 Pilot (116k points)
I think that is a good start,

The Wikipedia page for Eric Bloodaxe, has some interesting information about the sources and taking a more critical attitude to the Icelandic sagas as historical sources.

There is also this article, by Gareth Williams, who also wrote a biography of Eric, which is cited extensively in some Wikipedia articles in other languages. See the Danish one for instance.

Thanks, noted & linked as sources. Wish I could read what the Scandinavians have posted to this profile. However, main effort at this stage is to identify family members. Wish the bio I wrote for Haaken was still extant, seems lost beyond recall.
My impression when I looked at it a week ago was that some  of the Swedish text was a translation of some of the English (or vice-versa).
We are beginning to make progress with the problem Andrew has highlighted here. It would be very useful if someone could follow what is happening and help tidy the Scandinavian text as we go.
+10 votes
Begining to enjoy myself among the Vikings again. Rescued Thorgils https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Haraldsson-139 this morning, he had been yellow stickered into oblivion.
by Valerie Willis G2G6 Pilot (116k points)

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