One category with multiple parents vs. AKA template [closed]

Question

Closed: Question answered. Since text should ideally be moved off of category pages into space pages, there is no concern about multiple languages with lower-level categories.

The Switzerland Project currently has a page of rules about setting up categories:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Switzerland_Cantons_and_Places_Categories

Because there are four official languages, sometimes spoken in the same localities, the AKA template is used a lot to have multiple versions of the same category written in different languages.

Right now, the page I linked above says near the end, "Municipality categories are placed under their canton category. If a municipality category name is the same in two languages, the category is to be nested in the parent categories corresponding to both languagues." Then it gives the example [[Category:Lausanne, Vaud]] should be placed under [[Category:Canton of Vaud]] and under [[Category:Canton de Vaud]]. And that is currently how the Lausanne category is set up:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Lausanne%2C_Vaud

But this seems to me out of date, and that the AKA template should be used, as it is on many other Switzerland categories. Having categories in multiple languages allows information placed on the category pages to be in just those languages, making it friendlier to users who are not conversant in all of the languages.

So,the above example would need to be modified to rename the Lausanne category, correct? There would be multiple categories, like [[Category:Lausanne, Canton of Vaud]] and [[Category:Lausanne, Canton de Vaud]], and then the AKA template could be used?

I was thinking I would change the language on the page I linked at the top to reflect using the AKA template rather than using multiple parent categories that are the same, just in different languages. But I wanted to make sure, so I'm posting. And I especially want to make sure before I start putting in requests to rename categories, since [[Category:Lausanne, Vaud]] and the like would need to go away.

Aside: I and others have expressed before that "Canton of Vaud" sounds much clunkier than "Vaud", but I suppose the categories had to be setup with this extra verbiage to allow for using the AKA template?

Comments

I was the author of the proposal which led to the categories being set up as they are. By the way it went through the whole vetting process.

The reason why the canton categories are called "Canton of..." is because some cantons share the name of a city (such as Geneva or Freiburg). The current naming was chosen to leave no doubt about whether a category is about the canton or about the city.

Answer 1

I am unfamiliar with Switzerland. The suggestions sound wise however, and I wish you good luck.

Answer 2

I don't think you should mess with those unless you hear from someone working in Swiss categories and/or Ales. Thanks for asking here first.

The aka template is already in place and using just the Canton name "Vaud"  in the municipal level categories means that it fits under either English or French or whatever language is added. I believe the cantons are set up with the main language spoken within that Canton.

Anyway, Italy is set up similarly and it seems to work.

Comments

The initial suggestion is just to edit official guidlines on the page created by the Switzerland project, which would apply to new category creation (so no messing with existing categories). Requesting that existing categories be renamed to comport with the revisions would come later.

---

I already have some points written down that need to be added to the categories page for Switzerland categories as approved here in G2G, but I don't have access to the page yet.

A few categories such as Biel-Bienne will needed to be fixed, but I'm happy to do that, as I'm already familiar with categories.

---

I split up Biel-Bienne to Biel and Bienne. The AKA template takes about two days to work, until then a red link is shown.

I learned something new today, that Biel/Bienne is the official name since 2005. But as we approved the municipalities as of 1980, we have now both the "1980" rule as the "bilingual" rule set up.

---

THank you, I! :-)

Answer 3

I do not see the need to do this at all.  The landing level categories are specifically named ''city, canton'' with the canton being the name of the canton, it does not require that the words ''Canton de'' be added.  Just like in Canada, one does not need to write ''Montréal, Province de Québec'' for modern-day Montréal.  One writes ''Montréal, Québec'', and it has 2 parent streams, one English, one French.  Only one landing-level category.

The cities are the landing levels, there is no sense in creating duplicate categories the way you propose, the aka template works, but with delays sometimes, and frankly what you propose appears to be added load on the program for no discernible benefit.  One landing level, multiple parents works quite well.  Why change something that is working?

Comments

Edit: okay, I am revising my comment because I understand better what you are saying. I guess the question is, do we expect language on a municipality category page eventually, with a discussion of how to find sources for that municipality, etc. Most of the time, there is no such writing on a municipality category page, so there is no need for separate municipality pages in separate languages. But when someone decides to add a bunch of text, then they have made a choice of language, and the current structure doesn't offer a means to choose that language, other than arbitrarily, or to provide different versions of the municipality category in different languages. Since this happens rarely, maybe no one cares.

---

What Danielle wrote is the approved structure from the last G2G discussion: municipalities would be created in the "main" language of the canton, and only the about four truly bilingual municipalities will get a category in each of their language (Biel / Bienne is one of them, which I will clean up as soon as possible).

Usually, Swiss municipality categories don't have text at all, but I added text for merged municipalities (eg. Schlosswil, Bern), or if they have a different name in different languages. I did this in English, but we can add text in other languages to the same category. As grown up in Switzerland, it doesn't seem weird to me to have different languages at the same place, as this is what happens here in everyday life, such as food declarations or official publications.

I personally wouldn't add much text such as resources to the categories. We better could make canton space pages for resources? Then the categories wouldn't be full of text, but the cantons categories could link to the space page.

---

Barry, ideally category pages don't have a lot of text, they give a brief description of what the category is for, sometimes all that is on the category page is a CIB (category info box).  There's always the possibility of creating a free space page to include pertinent additional data on the locality.  Which would be given the category so it is easily found.

Categorization project has been aiming to reduce text on category pages, I believe there's even a DBE item on the subject, although I could be wrong on this last.

---

That's the way to do it. Free-space profiles are the best place for information beyond the category info box.

---

and for your info, the aka template only works with landing level categories, ie if there are profiles that fit under a category in one language, and the category is also in another language, then the categories which mirror each other get aka template.  For example: Marine Companies to New France has the French equivalent Compagnies Franches de la Marine en Nouvelle-France.  Putting either category on a profile will lead to it showing up in both.  AKA template doesn't mirror sub-categories.

---

Okay, that makes sense.

Answer 4

Hi Barry

I think the Canton categories are set up the right way. The AKA template is already working on them. The Cantons need the categories in all the now existing languages (see approved table of which languages need to exist). Then the municipality categories will be shown in all the Cantons, as they whould when the AKA template is working correctly.

What we could change, is the text language in the Cantons category, so the french category would get french text etc.
In Italy Porject, we would love to have the categories in Italian text as well. But same as the Switzerland Project, we don't really have the resources, so we better have the categories in English than not having them at all.

Yes, Canton of Vaud as category sounds a bit clunky, but the only other possibility would be "Vaud, Suisse" and "Waadt, Schweiz" to distinguish them from other possible Vaud locations.
So because of resources, I would keep them the way they are, for the moment. I spent some hours in creating more Bernese municipalities last weekend :-) .

Edit: typo.

Comments

Thanks I.

The canton categories were designed as "Canton of..." precisely to make it clear that they represent a canton, even from the category picker. Otherwise, with cantons named after cities, it would not be clear and the canton categories would inevitably be misused.

For instance if we had "Geneva, Switzerland" instead of "Canton of Geneva" it would not be obvious that the category is for the canton, and not for the city.