"Roll of Honour" Categories for localities

+7 votes
332 views
A Roll of Honour is a war memorial that lists and honours those who died in military services. By creating "Roll of Honour" categories for localities, it would be like having a virtual cenotaph for each area. It also makes those who fought in wars easier to find through categories by marking them through their home before leaving for war.

The Roll of Honour would be a subcategory of the locality, either through county or city, whichever the majority prefers. Example: [[Category:Roll_of_Honour,_Cumberland_County,_Nova_Scotia]] or [[Category:Roll_of_Honour,_Oxford,_Nova_Scotia]]

Thoughts? Suggestions?
in Policy and Style by Erin Breen G2G6 Pilot (344k points)

4 Answers

+5 votes
 
Best answer

Let me address these one at a time.

1.  This is NOT a war memorial, which is defined as: 

A war memorial is a building, monument, statue or other edifice to celebrate a war or victory, or (predominating in modern times) to commemorate those who died or were injured in war.

and a Edifice is defined as:

A building, especially one of imposing appearance or size. 2. An elaborate conceptual structure: observations that provided the foundation ...

2.  This is a intended to honour/honor the SOLDIER.  To insinuate this is a War Memrorial is to cheapen their sacrifices for citizens worldwide.

 Honour is defined as:

  1. personal integrity: strong moral character or strength, and adherence to ethical principles
  2. respect: great respect and admiration
  3. dignity: personal dignity that sometimes leads to recognition and glory

3.  A soldier is most always associated with a war in error.  Our soliders (world wide) have suffered and sacrificed in helping citizens - not just in fighting in wars.  There were soldiers that went to other countries to assist and how about Katrina, I believe this is the first time foreign aid was received in the US from other countries.  When you state this is a War Memorial I interpret you to say - A soldier that gave his limb/life/liberty to save a citizen from a natural disaster in another country or his/her own doesn't deserve to be recognized?? IF our militray (world wide) recoginizes that - so should we. 

4. 5.  So ok -- let's make a category for a Clan - DAR - SAR - Pioneer or maybe a Prison for criminals in a local category - then give it a TEMPLATE and place that on the those profiles... But a SOLDIER that was recoginized for outstanding service to his/her country, or became a POW/MIA KIA doesn't deserve a template or badge? 

6. To suggest that our Free Page or Category is buried as a sub category in a local category is, in my opinion, to cheapen their service and sacrifice.

7.  Our free page is meant to honor those folks - what if the only thing you knew about your ancestor is that he was a POW? Here that person could find them and thus connect with the rest of his family.

8. To split this up into separate countries undermines the vision -- that's like saying -- we can have a one world tree as long as it's split into different countries.  So if Aunt Susie was an Austrialian - she can ONLY be categorized on the Austrailian free page or category... this is about collaboration and honor to a fallen SOLDIER. Regardless of the circumstances - country  etc... A soldier is a human that paid a price so that others wouldn't have to pay that price.

We can split the Free Page into -- 4 - One for POW/MIA - KIA - etc...

We can further split into Alphabetical -- but I see no logical reason to bury this in a sub to a sub to a sub category or to segregate by country.

Point is I can go and find where other countries have sent military aid in the form of SOLDIERS in support of Natural Disasters all over the world - But since I'm sitting in USA - those are the ones that I can readily find....

The Roll of Honour was conceptualized and Implemeted to be a Top Level Category/Free Page.

This is my input -- Trib will probably have more to add.

by Terri Rick G2G6 Mach 4 (43.6k points)
selected by Living King

I am sorry if my phrasing was offensive - I am quite unfamiliar with military matters and phrasing. I did not intend to cheapen anyone's service or sacrifice.

I think that regional categories in addition to a free space and template/badge would be a fine thing to have. Categories are intended to be groupings that help us find ancestors, with a specificity to them. If my relative Joe Random from Kalamazoo died in service, I would love to be able to Google "Lt. Joe Random Kalamazoo" and find a WikiTree profile for him with a banner reminding us that he was Killed in Action, and then have a category link to his comrades from Kalamazoo, which may also help me find other Randoms who served. 

I think it's important here that we distinguish between free space pages and categories. Free space pages are not usually the best choice for listing a lot of people. They can only be edited by those on the trusted list, and the list would have to be manually edited.

This seems like something that categories would be a good option for, as Erin has suggested. And as I've said before, the problem with having one category that is not split up geographically is mainly one of size. It's not good, for both technical reasons and reasons of the category's usability, to have one category that holds a vast number of profiles.
Hi Lianne Free space open pages can be edited by any one the Roll of Honor page has already been edited by a couple of Members not on the trusted list and members not on the trusted list are always editing our Ancaz free space pages so this wouldnt be a issue Trib and Terri have set up the 4 category pages for the Roll of Honor/Honour and they look great i might be missing the point but why does everything on WikiTree have at have sub categories of Categories when all Terri wanted to do was Honor these Hero'sTerry
While the open privacy setting addresses one of my concerns, the rest still stand. Namely:

1) Those free space pages will become outrageously long, until they can no longer load on many computers.

2) Same problem with categories. Categories have to be split up into subcategories in order to load quickly and to make them more useful.

3) They are international without really being international; they are in English only, and specifically American English. If I had an ancestor who'd received the Victoria Cross, I would not want him or her categorised under Medal of Honor Recipients, which is named after the American medal.

While the third reason is the one that I feel most strongly about in this case, it's not really the main reason. The technical reasons named above are the real reasons we shouldn't have categories or free space pages that will list such huge numbers of people in one place.
I dont know how, but ive completely missed this G2G discussion!!! Alright what Terri said above is 100% right! Addressing the concerns: - As ti the Medal of Honor page, this should be for just that. The Victoria Cross is different, if sliggtly, and should have its own page. In this way it maintains the dignity and respect desrrved while stying international. Also because there is no way i see to describe these madals under one title. - As to the names. I dont think having a complete list of names in these pages is practical either. I have mentioned several times in other discussion that to recognize the individual we have the badge/template, and as for the free space, it would be a descriptive text, history and pictures of the general term applicable. This is not the ideal method, but until thry invent something else in computing, i think this is a compromise we should accept. Leave it to the profile biography to go into individual specifics. This would keep it international and yet make it manageable. This is simple. Perhaps if we started with the free space thing and didnt ask for s list of nmes millions long, we would be out of the category disagreements. I personally do not want this as a category and now i wish i never suggested it. I dont want to speak for Terri, but i think she might feel similarly. NO CATEGORIES PLEASE! The categories themselves would be way way way to impractical. We might as well go back to every county, city, town and township if we do that and it was a disaster to clean up. - language...... If those that can want to translate the pages so they re multilingual then please do. WikiTree aims to be international as a whole, but we are not the UN and cannot have every profile and page in every language. Im not necessarily opposed to that if it were practical for the record. These pages are in english because the three of us speak english. By the way i am sorry for my "American English". I cannot help which vountry i was born in and did not wish to offend anyone with my spelling. You can call it Honour or you can say it in pig-latin, i dont care. Im not trying to Americanize this and i have said that from the beginning. A friendly suggestion to internationlize my spelling is always welcome. I have never had cross words with anyone on WikiTree but please don't take my desire to honor (honour) our Veterans and use my "American English" as a reason to not do this. We have language volunteers on WikiTree who might want to help translate our pages once they are up. That would be really cool! Lets do it. This is not an American idea, it is a global idea inspired by all nations languages and times. I am sorry for going on like that but i did NOT expect so much resistance in this. I dont know if we are just dwelling on spelling or if we cant get categories and endless lists of names out of our heds, but I, at least have countered all of this list and category talk with workable solutions. This is a simple thing and a righteous one at that. What i proposed is easily doable and supported by several people, and it counters all arguments against it. I am realky hoping this is not about it being a problem anyone has with vets... not an acusation, just a strongly worded hope. This amount of resistance is unbelievable though...

I can agree with this --- What good is a page dedicated to fallen heroes from say Germany when they can't read American English??? But the German Section could have been changed to be written in that language, if a volunteer would step up and do so.... We would recognize the flag and know what it was about from the rest of the page..... I will not apologize for not knowing all the languages or the specifics of each honor, but I would have expected folks to visualize the fact that those can be  changed. If a Russian/Spanish/German/French person came up with the idea and it was all in that language - I would want at least the part about my country to be in American English --- this I can understand and we could have worked this angle.  We all have Special Awards that don't necessarily fall under the heading -- help to fix that would have been appreciated -- if collaboration is used and who gets credit for what isn't an issue -- a great honor/honour can be given to a group of folks that deserve it.. 

This would be the ONLY place that honors/honours ALL of our fallen heroes that keeps politics out of the picture.. 

Just a badge/template to honor our heroes - one that when you click on it takes you to the correct descriptive free page with specific sections in differnt languages even (a breif explanation could be included in English) so others would know what this special section is about - International English is still considered the Global means of  communication. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English - can we really NOT agree or find a way to make this work to honor/honour our fallen heroes?  Cause if we here, who are supposed to be dedicated to collaboration, can't make this work -- nobody can..

Respectfully,

Terri

Trib, I certainly didn't mean my comments on American English to be a personal attack on you or anyone else. I'm simply arguing that it's one reason for splitting things up by country.

Terri, the idea of International English is far from agreed-upon. As it says in that Wikipedia article, many see it as cultural imperialism.

However, if you want to make free space pages about POWs, etc., that are written in English, that's fine of course. Anyone can write free space pages in any language they like. And it would be easy for me or another Supervisor to make templates for these profiles that link back to the free space pages. It's more the previously suggested category pages that concerned me.

I know Trib has already 'retracted' his wish to have this category, but I thought I would chime in to the discussion as I still believe it was/is a good idea even if we have to compromise on some parts of the vision, to accomodate technical considerations, ease of use, etc.

Limiting the size of a returned dataset is a technical neccesity; World War I, by itself, had over 9 million military deaths; to put that in perspective the entire Wikitree site currently has only 6.2 million profiles - there is no way around it, KIA and the other categories need to be sub-categorized somehow, whether that is alphabetically as Terri suggested; by date; by operation, by unit, or in some other way.

Diverting on my first tangent, in Canada, at the capital there are seven books of Remembrance in honour of all the nation's fallen soldiers. The books are for WWI, WWII, Korea, South Africa (Boer War), Merchant Navy, Newfoundland (this book is seperate because the province of Newfoundland did not join Canada until after WWII), and "in Service of Canada" which covers peacekeepers, UN Observers, soldiers in Afghanistan, disaster relief, domestic operations, and even those that died of natural causes while serving. These 7 books are then divided by year. This is categorization, but I would be hard pressed to say it cheapens their service.

I would also point out that 'war memorial' is often used in connection to any memorial that remembers fallen soldiers, although the definition you gave of a war memorial (taken from wikipedia?) is certainly correct as well. As an example the Government of Canada's Virtual War Memorial includes soldiers who died on peace keeping missions, UN observer missions, and those who died domestically (for example those that were killed in a train crash at Canoe River, British Columbia), it is not just a list of those who died in war. Anyways, this is picking fly poop out of the pepper.

As I mentioned in my previous answer, I do see merit in Erin's idea of following geographic divisions - for example the ability to post information on cenotaphs/memorials in the local area so that people could visit these sites (in the real world). Deviating onto another tangent for a moment  - imagine a school/scout/community group visits the local memorial as part of memorial/remembrance day and can then come to wikitree and easily find out about the lives of all (or many) of the people from their community whose names they saw. Rather than just an abstraction (a name on a list), they could use Wikitree to get a sense of the actual person the name on that memorial represents, and the totality of their sacrifice; the family, friends, and life they left behind. I think it is much more of a tribute to be remembered as a person not just as a name on a list.

Anyway, I fully agree that their should also be a template; in a seperate non-G2G discussion I suggested it could include the national flag of the country the soldier served, the appropriate symbol of rememberance for that country or person (such as a poppy, yellow ribbon, POW*MIA symbol, etc.) and perhaps the soldiers highest rank attained, decorations, last unit, and the date they were declared KIA/MIA if applicable. Even though these details should already be included in the bio, I think it is appropriate to add those to a template to emphasize them.

On to the issue of the "Medal of Honor" et al. I think an overarching category of "Military Decorations" would be appropriate. 'Decoration' is usually used to encompass the higher precedent medals for Bravery, Heroism, Valour, and Meritorious or Distinguished service. The names of the decorations should include the issuing country allowing all nations medals to appear in the top level under "Military Decorations" even if the name is used in multiple countries For example: "Distinguished Service Medal (AUS)", "Distinguished Service Medal (UK)", and the similarly named "Distinguished Service Medal (Army) (US)". A total unresearched guess here, but I imagine these lists are only a couple thousand names long, so they might be ok to leave without further sub-categorization.

As for the spelling - let's just put everything in Esperanto - then everyone can dislike it equally :D (p.s. according to Google translate that would make it 'honoro') (p.p.s. just joking around)

Haha, I know you were joking about the Esperanto, Rob, but I've actually thought that very thing many times during this conversation. :) (I'm an Esperanto student and a fan of using it as an international language.)

I agree with the suggestions for categories and templates that you've put forth.
Now this is a plan that can work with what we have intended:  We can use both --

The free pages can click the way to the categories - - and the categories can have the links going back to the free pages that describes all the top level Military Decorations. This provides an easy way to locate each and is an awesome compromise.

The free pages will provide the images, texts, explanations etc and the categories will contain the roll call of recipients.  A win win solution. The free pages and templates keep it special.

The templates can all be desinged to point to the overarching free page - giving the opportunity to visit/read about the other Military Decorations.  That overarching free page will include a link to a free page that is specifically dedicated to a description of each Military Decoration (in what ever language is applicable),,  

One free page to cover Miliatry Decorations - linking to the top level Roll of Honour Category - sub categorized into Military Decorations, then further sub categorized. Etc...

One free page to explain all the Military Decorations for each country - then under the image a link going to each Military Decoration page (The Victorian Cross) (Legion of Honour) (Medal of Honor) (POW/MIA) etc. On each of these separate free pages will be a link leading back to that specific category - and a link in that specific category leading back to the free page.

Sound like a winning combination,
+2 votes
I think it is/was usual (in the real world) for cenotaph's to honour 'the local boys and girls' from the town/village and immediately surrounding townships. In larger cities that would even be down to specific boroughs or communities.

My vote is for cities. The category page could also potentially list any local memorials, and cenotaphs.

Also to prevent confusion perhaps "Military Roll of Honour" would be appropriate to distinguish it from other rolls of honour such as police, fire, etc.,
by Rob Ton G2G6 Pilot (292k points)
+1 vote
Hi Erin i dont see why The Roll of Honor  has to be broken up into categories what is wrong with 4 free space pages one for KIA,MIA/POW,Wounded and Roll of Honor

  I think this is a long the lines Terri Rick was thinking when Terri suggested this to Trib it was page to Honor these profiles on WikiTree as well as all the Military personnel from around the world that fought and Died for their Countries in every War

We dont have a Category ,Free Space page  that includes profiles worldwide it would be great to add the profiles from different countries together on these pages  Terry
by Terry Wright G2G6 Pilot (191k points)
edited by Terry Wright
I'm not sure what's being suggested in regards to free space pages and categories. But if there are going to be categories, they'll need to be split up by country, or they will simply be too big. It will take too long to load, and be very difficult to look through as it will be many pages long.

Also, as I've said before, I dislike the idea of using the spelling "honor" in an international category, when only one country spells it that way. It makes it feel not really very international at all. This wouldn't be an issue if it were split up by country.
+1 vote
A link to a resource for cenotaphs in the UK

 

United Kingdom National Inventory of War Memorials    

http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.002
by Billy Wallace G2G6 Pilot (232k points)

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