any objection to using this Van Kouwenhoven as final PPP ID for Jan Van Kouwenhoven, b. about 1495 in Netherlands? [closed]

Question

This is for our new New Netherlands Settler Project assessment of every NNS ancestor so that we can have clean and orderly merges.

This ancestor is the most recent which seems to have used the "K" variant, rather than the later Americanized "C" variant. There are a couple G2G discussions on those later American descendants, but I think they do not apply here.

There was one prior merge on this, and no others at present are in need of merge here.

Both variants in that merge had the exact same spelling, so no issues.

The only real doubt right now is whether or not the Van part is appropriate here, and for older ancestors, as they are currently the same as this one. Because this generation and those older ones did not leave the home place for distant lands. As Phil taught us, the Van means from, and was used in a particular generation around this time, but only for the generation who left.  

But since these are already in this form, without any conflict, I am reluctant to change them at this time to anything else. But if later we get more dupes and with other variant forms, we can certainly open the PPP at that time and revisit this discussion.

So if there is no objection, or only limited repsonse, I will close this G2G in one week, on March 15, 2014.

And then finalize this profile as PPP and move it into the Ancestor category. He is the grandfather of the immigrant.

Answer 1

I see in a related G2G that Liz found Columbia Library reference (1630 timeframe):

van wolfert Geritsz - Wolphert Gerritsen [van Couwenhovan]... Wolphert Gerritsz was from Amersfoort, and is often referred to as Wolfert Gerritsz van Couwenhoven, Couwenhoven being  a farm or estate about 4 miles north-west from Amersfoort, in the province of Utrecht (Holland).

So since the farm is so specfic, rather than a region or town, I am inclined to be okay fine with the Van present in this, as well as the ancestors.

And I would stick with the K here as well, for now, because it seems that it was the older preferred native spelling, of both the family and the farm estate.

Comments

I agree - there is even a wikipedia page on this area which is now a county / area ... Spelled 'Couwenhoven' ('hof' in this sense meaning 'stead' as in 'farm').

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Thanks y'all! Are the later/more modern ones we've done as final WikiTree ID with a C still ok?

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Yes. I simply wanted to flag for G2G this profile where the family line transitions from evidently what was the older native Netherlands "K" variant into the later modernized "C" variant of the descendants. And to keep the "Van" prefix on the whole early line, as it was built.

I would not change anything for later descendants. They should have the "C" variant.

But then we will also need to pinpoint the specific American descendants on lines which then dropped the "Van" as well. And changed spelling, in some cases. They are not all the same. It depends.

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Excellent, in this case I agree. However see my comments in the commen box Van Kouwenhoven-9 for a possible correct spelling of the next generation and possibly previous generations. And there was a farmstead 'Couwenhoven' in the New Netherlands as well. And something else - I never said that the 'k' is old Dutch and the 'c' the Americanised version. The 'k' is much more used commonplace (here in the Netherlands) - the modern form of the 'c'. As far as 300 years ago is concerned, there is no one rule for the c/k.

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see http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Van_Couwenhoven_Name too

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I'm aware of that comment, and agree that there is a definite and specific connection to that place.

But I firmly disagree that he or [and especially this] his ancestors should suddenly be LNAB'd with Van Kouwenhoven, whatever the spelling. See my the example of Andriesz-6 as an example of how it really worked in those days. For simplicity I placed the example in the memory-box on http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Van_Couwenhoven_Name

Also see my lengthy explaination in that same page.

 

 

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In the Netherlands the use of a real and officially registered last name started in the year 1811 ,before that almost no one used one ,the name of the father was used as last name.... so Jacob was the son of Wolphert (or Wulphert as he is mentioned also in some genealogical archives) In some regions they would wright it as Jan (fathers first name +zn) in other regions  just as : Jan (fathers frist name +s)

Kouwenhoven ,origianally was the name of a farm near Amersfoort ,so Jan probably came from or was born at the or in a place near the farm . So than people would say he is Jan (fathers first name+s)(zn)  van (= from  in English) Kouwenhoven , so everyone would know he came from somewhere near or from the farm Kouwenhoven near Amersfoort in the Netherlands . So thats probably why they used/registered ´ van Kouwenhoven´ as their last name later on .

The farm Kouwenhoven was written like this ,but very often names were changed a bit and also in 1673 they would already wright it with capital C so:  van Couwenhoven . So if the children used and or registered with van Couwenhoven being their last name it would be probably correct to go with that ,because in 1614 their ancestors would only have used the van Kouwenhoven part to let people know were they came from ,and not used it as a oficial registered last name .

But for this Jan born about 1495 ,suppose his dads name was Jan also ,names would be Jan Jans or Jan Janszn and maybe you could add van Kouwenhoven or van Couwenhoven being the later used last name ?? Otherwise for some Dutch genealogists things could get very confusing ,because before 1811 there were no last names used by most common people and they would be registered in churchbooks or things only with the name of their father ...so if Jan was a son of Jan ,the names he would use or get registered with were Jan Jans /or Jan Janszn

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Thanks for confirming Bea, you are right concerning the use of patronymic surnames in the Netherlands before 1811. See http://wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Van_Couwenhoven_Name for my explanation of how for practical and socio-political reasons the patronymic system was not only dropped altogether within less that 100 years in New Amsterdam / New York, but Dutch surnames had become Anglicised.

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Great solution for this Last name issue,found the name also being used in many different ways ,van Kouwenhoven,Kouwenhoven,van Couwenhoven,Couwenhoven ,Cowenhoven ...so mentioning all of them is a great way and for last name Gerritszn mentioned also, will of course prevent mistakes or mixing up people.

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Here are a few sites with some interesting background information about the farm and the family ..part 1 . http://www.historischekringhoogland.nl/pagina92.html

                            part 2  http://www.historischekringhoogland.nl/pagina96.html

It´s all in Dutch ,but as you can see ,they also used only Kouwenhoven (without te van)  for last name ,if you would like to get things/parts of it , translated I´m happy to give it a try :)

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Great, thanks Bea! - I will certainly place the links on the Van_Couwenhoven name page as sources, even though the language is Dutch.

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If I'm understanding this discussion correctly, the final WikiTree ID should be changed from Van_Kouwenhoven-5 to Willemsen - and the father's final WikiTree ID should be ... Janse?

Just as an aside, when we began the New Netherland Settlers project, we considered the LNAB field simply a way to identify the WikiTree profile, not necessarily as the proper, official, and recognized "last name" since 1600-1674 timeframe the Dutch weren't using surnames as we know them today.

However, I tend to work solely in WikiTree, so I did not take into consideration the ramifications of how the WikiTree profiles matched up across different programs. In addition, the New Netherland Settlers project was not originally intended to reach so far back. The intent was to cover those how immigrated to and settled New Netherland and their descendants who retained a sense of community even after Dutch rule. It became apparent, however, that profiles for some of the parents/grandparents of these settlers had need of protection under a project, so we created the NNS Ancestor category to afford them that protection. I must admit that my learning curve is steep on naming conventions used by New Netherland Settlers. When it comes to those who stayed in the Netherlands, I need to rely completely on others' expertise.

So. If Van Kouwenhoven-5 needs to change to Willemsen, let me know. And perhaps y'all could start a new G2G question about his father (currently Van Kouwenhoven-14, but probably needs to be Janse or some variation of that).

Thanks!

 

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Hi Liz, I agree, a steep learning curve for me too. But the LNAB is exactly that - as it was noted down in the baptismal records (and of course when those are missing - other sources - the next best thing - marriage registers / administrative records etc.). Van_Kouwenhoven-5 should be changed to Willemsen.

The sources that Bea supplied describe the search for evidence of the various families who leased 'Kouwenhoven' from the different landlords over the centuries. Wolfert was probably born on this farm but when the lease ended (this source states) all connection with the children of Gerrit Jansz and the physical place ended. They were minors; they had all departed to the new colony. The name lingered however and within a generation or two became the LNAB. The source also describe some research into the 'five founding family names' in the New Netherland. Van Kouwenhoven being one of them, another being Van Rensselaer ...

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Found this also ,here there is a Gerrit Wulphertszn mentioned (part II ......... Weymtgen: 650 gl. uit erfdeel van haar moeder en de helft van 4 morgen land op Voscuijlen (de andere helft is van haar broer Gijsbert Woutersz), gebruikt door Gerrit Wulphertsz, zijnde een deel van 12 morgen genaamd ‘de achterste camp’ (Kouwenhoverkamp-oost)

All in Dutch and all very specific info how and who inhareted what ..Gerrit Wulphertsz (Son of a Wulphert ...) isn´t inherating anything but he gets the use (lease) of the part of land Wymtgen inherited ( belonging to the Kouwenhoven farm ,this farmland is called Kouwenhoverkamp-Oost) ...

And also this shows the use of the name Kouwenhoven in many different spellings already back than ,it starts with van Kouwenhoven,later it´s changed in van Couwenhoven,and also Couwenhoven (without the ´van´) is used in this genealogy ..this one starts in 1620 Jan Jansz. van Kouwenhoven leases the Kouwenhovenfarmfrom 1620  till 1655 ,from 1653 -1673 he is the owner and user of the part of land Kouwenhoverkamp-Oost .In 1673 Jan (who lived at Couwenhoven ) makes a notarial will .....

http://oudscherpenzeel.nl/wp-content/uploads/genealogie-pdf/Kouwenhoven.pdf 

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Hi Liz and Philip,

In the genealogy part as well as the other links , it seems that in that area and during those days probably Willemsz (z = standing for zoon ,thats son in English, written that way  it´s meaning son of Willem ) would be even more correct ,maybe you can add van Kouwenhoven as aka last name ??

So for all van Couwenhovens/Couwenhovens/van Kouwenhovens/Kouwenhovens from before 1811 (so all Kouwenhovens that were not officially registered in churchbooks or other registers with that name for official last name ) it would be the most easy to just use the patroniemsystem ,so if Jan has a known father named Willem ..his registered name by birth would most likely be Jan Willemsz. His father would be named Willem Jansz ,and so you go on ,girls also got the first name of father for last name ,for example if Jan would have  a daughter named Sjoukje ,she would become Sjoukje Jansdr .  

To make it easier for all people doing research I guess using van Kouwenhoven(or van Couwenhoven or even Couwenhoven/Kouwenhoven) as aka last name would be fine  . If the children or greatgrandchildren of these persons were registered with Couwenhoven or whatever spelling of the name ,I would go by that name for the people (great/ great/ grand/parents etc ) from before the registration as aka . My guess is all lines of this branche used different spellings for the registration ,with or without the ´van´ ,and also Dutch names sometimes get spelled ´incorrect´ or Anglicised  ...Gerrit sometimes spelled as Garret or Geret ,guess there are many duplicates now because of this  spelling differences and of course also because of the use of so many spelling differences in the last name . Can imagine it getting very confusing for many ,so it´s great to see everyone is trying hard to get it all straight now .

here are some pictures from the farm also 

http://www.hetutrechtsarchief.nl/beeld/Atlantis/532/_500/202532.jpg

http://www.hetutrechtsarchief.nl/beeld/Atlantis/349/_500/29349.jpg

Today I found this familydirectory http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~msw12041937/familydirectory.html 

the whole familystory in English ,maybe you all seen or read it already but I´ll add it just in case . Geret must be Gerrit ,and Wolfert Geretse =Wolfert Gerritsz ,and Neeltje must be Jansdr ,here also the names are confusing for the writer it seems . also a Altje mentioned somewhere ,Altje probably would be Aaltje because thats a name commonly used in those days in the Netherlands.

And according to this directory , Wolfert Gerritsz (van Kouwenhoven) only had tree sons:1. Gerrit Wolfertsz (He most likely is named after his grandfather Gerrit)

           2.Jacob Wolfertsz

           3. Pieter Wolfertsz

Maybe this familydirectory can help unrafeling which people are duplicates and can be merged ? And of course to prevent the adding of children or other people ,who in fact are not children but attached to the van Kouwenhoven family in another way .