Have you Y-DNA tested and do you have a distant Y-DNA tested direct paternal line relative in WikiTree?

Question

If so, how distant is your relationship?

Here is an example of direct paternal line 10th cousins 

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Spencer-16219&person2_name=Spencer-2442

who match on 34 out of 37 markers https://www.mitoydna.org/public/YCompare?MtyID=T10761%2CT10745

To see the above 34/37 match, register at mitoYDNA.org and login there.  Then click on the above link.  MitoYDNA is free and integrates with WikiTree.

Comments

Kitty, I got that test done perhaps two years ago. I'm not frustrated, just stating important facts. Yes W037 is my family line, which is one of the most well documented. However, my biological, paternal 3rd ggf had a common paternal-line ancestor with that Downing line.  

I understand the urge to balance what I stated wrt Y37 results, but everything I said is absolutely true and provable.

---

We can/will all have different outcomes with Y-37 marker testing.  Here is my story.

In March, 2004 I founded the Harvey Y-DNA surname project at FTDNA with my 37 marker "toe-in-water" experiment.  Resulted in no matches with ANY surname at 12 or 25 or 37 markers.

So I began sifting through genealogical family histories and surname projects for relevant Harvey males with immigrant colonial New England backgrounds to contact regarding possible MRCA connectivity.  (One of these agreed to be tested has died following having tested to Y700 level)

Following is the path so far :  FTDNA  test results                                                                               Today

06/04  4C1xR  12/12   25/25   37/37    67/67  110/111  Y700

06/09  6th C    12/12   25/25   37/37    67/67

06/13  6C1xR   0/12     0/25    34/37

Sorensen Molecular Genetic Foundation test results

Grandson                               37/37

Brother          37/37  (UPDATE : Y700 =610/613 match)

UPDATE: Brother is a Y700 match with no private variants for either.   E-FT86986 Family Terminal SNP

The upshot of all this effort has taken us from a predicted haplogroup of :

E @ ~53,000 ybp; 

E-M215 @ ~ 35'000 ybp 

E-M123@ ~ 18,000 ybp

E-M34       ~ 15,000 ybp

E-M84@    ~  8,000 ybp

E-Y81676      abt-2400 ybp   (our actual MRCA = 1758)

UPDATE : 6thC also tested positive for E-Y81676

Our case is simply one of an outlier haplogroup/haplotype that is nearly extinct - fortunately it appears there are enough living male direct line descendants, at least in the US, to continue our record on for another generation or so.

The reason I am bringing this to attention is because, in my opinion, the lack of Y-DNA testing by folks from our emigrant "old countries" is really stifling our ability to make family connections between continents.   

---

I think the level of markers needed for testing depends on the overall tested level of the surname group, and how that compares to other groups that may be close. For example the Mitchell group above us at FT is irish and we are Scottish, both are defined at 37 level, and by paper trails.

So, our Mitchell group, is determined at 37, but most of us are at 67+ have specific SNPs tested that everyone else in the group would likely have, so it becomes unnecessary  to spend the extra testing bucks, my opinion.

We tie 2 Mitchell lines together at this point, my 10th great grandfather 1550 Sussex England: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mitchell-23820.

---

Next generation  Mitchell-23810 is marked as confirm per Y DNA, that's the shared generation of the 2 brothers.

---

I agree with Kitty's statement too. Just this week I tied 7 Mitchells together in a Y DNA statement. Most of us are at 67 markers, but that's because we older members went through a kit mix up early on at FTDNA, and spent a lot of time trying to connect to one whose kit had been switched early on, so FT gave us all free upgrades to 67 markers. Currently we recommended the newer members go with 37, because that level does in fact define our group, so no reason for anyone to jump right in to a 67 test. You can see our group and cousinships posted at this profile: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mitchell-23810

---

I had a 37 marker YDNA test done through FTDNA.  I ended up matching 1 man with the same family name and we matched 37/37.  We were able to determine a common paternal ancestor.  I am very glad I took the test.

---

William, earlier this year I was contacted by a current day cousin in England and he connected us 3 additional generations farther back in England. Now we end up here: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michell-1110.

---

Sherrie,

You and your fellow related Mitchell's are to be complimented for getting back to the 15th century in England in such a well sourced style.  And the Y-STR grouping does a good job of identifying your specific Mitchell group.

However, when looked at from a Y-SNP haplogroup viewpoint there is minimal separation of distinct family lines within your group. That capability is what I really see the value of for selective SNP testing.

When I ran your group of 13 members through SNP Tracker tool I found :

11 @ R-M269 = 4350 yrs before current era = 6372 yrs ago

1 @ R-L21 = 2570 yrs before current era = 4592 yrs ago

1 @ R-FGC18441 = 620 yrs current era = 1402 yrs ago

Note :  These ages are all estimates with a very wide range based on FTDNA's database of SNP testing.  Use with a large dose of salt

Now, further Y-SNP testing could potentially bring several of your lines down to current time frame.  I guess it all depends on a person's ultimate objective.  In my case I was focused on finding my family's terminal haplogroup - especially as we are such a rare haplogroup occurrence. 

---

William, i'm not sure what this paragraph is about:

"However, when looked at from a Y-SNP haplogroup viewpoint there is minimal separation of distinct family lines within your group. That capability is what I really see the value of for selective SNP testing."

The participants in our group are all traced from birth, and several are deceased. It took years but we are thrilled to connect with our current day cousins in same area of England. And we're also very excited about our current day MacPherson matches in Ardnamurchan Scotland.

There are 2 still living who have done advanced testing, but I don't have a way to show that in the DNA statement. The deceased members' tests I can't access to my knowledge.

I think we just got lucky that cousins across the pond found us at WT and were tested too!

Sherrie

---

The basic difference is whether you are viewing from the top down (Y-STR testing) or viewing from the bottom up (SNP Testing).

Try comparing your R-M269, R-L21, and R-FCG18441 haplogroup designations individually through the SNP Tracker tool to see the vast difference in location/age effect changing to SNP testing has upon "your" specific R haplogroup pattern.  If others of your Mitchell STR-only tested members were to also SNP test you would see distinct branching with some of the branches nearing the present (say 1850-1900 time frame).  Keeping in mind of course these estimated dates have a wide confidence range.

Answer 1

Yes and no.

I've tested but not matched to a near Y-DNA relative. Wish I would though, would solve a lot of questions.

Answer 2

Yes.  We are fifth cousins and knew of each other from paper genealogy prior to testing.

Comments

Thanks David.  I hope your 5th cousin will join WikiTree and you both will add your Y-DNA results to mitoYDNA so your haplotypes can be compared via WikiTree.  See https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Instructions_to_Upload_Family_Tree_DNA_Y-DNA_Test_Information_to_mitoYDNA.org

---

Done.  Thanks for the tip, Peter.

---

The Big 700 Y-DNA test is invaluable to research both Surnames, Locations of origin and Lost Ancestors. In future it will become even more valuable because many older records have gaps. 

Without Y-DNA tests, I would not have been able to compare my ancestry with known lineages.

In religious periods like the nineteenth century many children's fathers hid their relationships to there illegitimate children to placate religious bigots. 

Every child has a right to know their natural parents because without it, the child is more often psychologically damaged. That certainly happened to my grandfather who was supposed to be deported to Australia because his father was a prominent person. 

Answer 3

I have a match (Y-67) with a GD of 6. Interestingly, although his tree doesn't intersect my own at the moment, his Trotter line comes from the same place mine does, and this is a pretty strong indication to me that they do intersect at some point. It may be too far back to actually find that connection, however.

Comments

Thanks! Sufficiently matching haplotypes with incomplete direct paternal lines (with the same or similar surname) can (and should) be recorded in WikiTree.  Here are some examples: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Roberts_Y-STR_Group_1

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Roberts_Y-STR_Group_2

---

Be aware folks, the haplogroup prediction provided by a 37-marker STR test is thousands of years old - long before the advent of surnames. In other words, over a hundred million men would probably share it. Again, useful for ruling out matches, but not so much proving MRCA within a genealogically useful timeframe. 

I currently have over a hundred FTDNA "matches" with a GD of 3 on Y37. Here are the surnames (including Wells, FWIW):

Adrain, Best, Bischoff, Boone, Brown, Burns, Byrne, Cook, Cooke, Coop, Daugherty, Davis, Dougherty, Downey, Downing, Evans, Flannery, Gaither, Gilmore, Gormley, Graham, Grant, Gray, Haggett, Higgins, Houston, Jackson, Kearney, Kelly, Kent, King, Lafarlett, Lawson, Madill, McAnally, McCairns, McCurdy, McDonnel, McHargue, McLaughlin, Meredith, Merryweather, Munnelly, Murphy, Neal, Quinn, Richards,,Robertson, Roddy, Rogers, Sherry, Slagle, Stevenson, Strain, Thomas, Wells, Wilson

The story changes when a genealogically useful test is taken. For a Y111 test, the list narrows down to 8 matches with GD of 5-7. All with Downing/Downen/Downey surnames. 

---

That's interesting Mike and very different from my experience.

At Y37, I have only 7 matches and they are all at a Genetic Distance of 4.  Only 2 of the 7 share my surname.

At Y67, I have 16 matches between a Genetic distance of 5 to 7. 9 of which share my surname.

Have not bothered to test at Y111, as I don't believe I'll find any useful information.

However, I have found it useful to look over the colorized chart of STR data and groupings.

---

Going back to Y37: I have 8 with GD of 1, incl. these surnames: Downing, Downen, Hardesty, Ploc, Ramsey, and Worley

And 11 with GD of 2, incl these surnames: Carlisle, Daugherty, Downing, Evans, Murray, Queen and Wilson.

For your results, no, I would not upgrade to more markers at this time. I'd wait for closer matches first.  I'd always recommend the Y37 test first before upgrading, regardless.

Logically, the biggest factor, by far, currently in determining number of matches you'd get is how many of your paternal line's descendants live in the USA.  (Assuming same probability of testing in the USA)

---

Mike, my match is Y-67, and shares my surname. Our trees coalesce at the same location and expected timeframe.

---

Hello Mike,

I want to focus on sufficiently matching haplotypes .  Unless you have Big-Y tested both close and distant known direct paternal line cousins, then one should not try use haplogroups to determine direct paternal line relatedness within a genealogical time frame.

---

Peter, what do you consider "sufficiently matching"? We're all related at some level and at the gross granularity provided by a Y37 STR marker test, we'd "match" many thousands of men if for example we were using 34 out of 37 markers.

---

Hello Mike.  How closely their haplotypes would be expected to match depends on the number of transmission events between them.  See https://clandonaldusa.org/index.php/tmrca-calculator

Very distant cousins would require Big-Y testing.

Y-DNA tested males should belong to the same direct paternal line in WikiTree (where father/son relationships should be documented as best as possible).  They should have a known shared direct paternal line ancestor. They should have the same (or similar) surname or have documentation explaining the surname change.

Answer 4

I have completed YDNA testing and although I have no distant direct paternal line relatives clearly identified on WikiTree, I have many matches on FamilyTree in both the Ross and Matheson Surname Study.  My closest matches share my surname.  However, there are many others "matches" with the surname Matheson.

A professional has developed a DNA model for Murchadh Buidhe .  He has the best genealogy, although I have not gotten around to reproducing it very well on WikiTree.  It is copy righted material, so I have not uploaded to WikiTree.  I am not a descendant of Murchadh.  Instead, I am a relative of his.

Considering how many matches I have on FamilyTree, it's rather sad to see how few have uploaded to WikiTree.

Answer 5

I have two 7th cousins who connect to my 6th great grandfather [[Beardsley-13  Abraham Beardsley]], and one 9th cousin connected to my 9th great grandfather [[Beardsley-17  William Beardsley]].

Answer 6

I have a match 36 of 37 markers with another Elliott. We are proven 3rd cousins once removed so my third g grandfather is also his. I also have a y-111 match of 7 markers distant who also has the same haplogroup as me. Different surname. We both where PF2548 which puts us at about 2300 yrs to MRCA. Results from our Big Y tests,along with a couple other guys has moved our haplogroup much closer to present.1200 yrs. BY198334(E-M35 >E-M81 >PF2548>BY198334). Or a MRCA around 820AD. Another person says a fast mutating marker we match exactly, CDY, means our MRCA is more like 300 yrs or less. That would be about 1720!

Answer 7

Didn't get active on WikiTree until relatively recently, so I just saw the question.  I can give a very strong YES!

I'm involved in a Petty surname Y-DNA study, and we have about a dozen participants who have tested at the Y-700 level and who all share the MRCA Thomas Petty (Petty-8), who is roughly our 7th great grandfather.

With the verified haplogroups we get with the Y-700 testing, we're beginning to be able to see the structure of this Petty branch's haplotree.  The top level, at Thomas Petty, appears to be I-BY34474, and a next level, possibly having formed with one (but not all) of Thomas' sons, appears to be I-BY120617.  We've identified the most recent ("terminal") haplogroup for at least one of the sub-branches, by having tested an uncle/nephew pair.

Only three of us have created our trees on WikiTree so far, but we're actively trying to get the others in our study to do so.  If any Pettys who see this have known or suspected roots in colonial Virginia or North Carolina, please contact me about possibly joining our study.

Answer 8

We can/will all have different outcomes with Y-37 marker testing.  Here is my story. (Now changed from comment to reply)

In March, 2004 I founded the Harvey Y-DNA surname project at FTDNA with my 37 marker "toe-in-water" experiment.  Resulted in no matches with ANY surname at 12 or 25 or 37 markers.

So I began sifting through genealogical family histories and surname projects for relevant Harvey males with immigrant colonial New England backgrounds to contact regarding possible MRCA connectivity.  (One of these agreed to be tested has died following having tested to Y700 level)

Following is the path so far :  FTDNA  test results                                                                               Today

06/04  4C1xR  12/12   25/25   37/37    67/67  110/111  Y700

06/09  6th C    12/12   25/25   37/37    67/67  UPDATE   Y700 test results = E-Y81676 w/2 variants-est. 2400 ybp

06/13  6C1xR   0/12     0/25    34/37

Sorensen Molecular Genetic Foundation test results

Grandson                               37/37

Brother          37/37  (UPDATE : Y700 =610/613 match)

UPDATE: Brother is a Y700 match with no private variants for either.   E-FT86986 Family Terminal SNP

The upshot of all this effort has taken us from a predicted haplogroup of :

E @ ~53,000 ybp; 

E-M215 @ ~ 35'000 ybp 

E-M123@ ~ 18,000 ybp

E-M34       ~ 15,000 ybp

E-M84@    ~  8,000 ybp

E-Y81676      abt-2400 ybp   (our actual MRCA = 1758)

UPDATE : 6thC also tested positive for E-Y81676

Our case is simply one of an outlier haplogroup/haplotype that is nearly extinct - fortunately it appears there are enough living male direct line descendants, at least in the US, to continue our record on for another generation or so.

The reason I am bringing this to attention is because, in my opinion, the lack of Y-DNA testing by folks from our emigrant "old countries" is really stifling our ability to make family connections between continents.   

commented Dec 27, 2019 by William Harvey G2G6
edited 3 minutes ago by William Harvey