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John Fowler(s) of Marlborough, Wiltshire in the early 1600s

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Location: Marlborough, Wiltshire, Englandmap
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Please see related question 1500-1600 clothworker Fowlers of Calne & Marlborough, Wiltshire: Same family? on G2G forum.

Contents

Related WikiTree Profiles and people

  • John Fowler c.1565-1648 "John Senior" wrote his will in 1647, had at least 2 wives and possibly more, had children from 1586 (or earlier) through 1605 assuming this analysis is correct.
    • Phillip Fowler c.1591 or earlier - 1679 son of John Senior, emigrant to New England
      • John Fowler 1611-?? born 7 Jun 1611 seems most likely to be the son of Phillip. Phillip listed a son John in his own will; if this man was his son then he (John) stayed in Marlborough and married Hester Eaton,[1] had daughter Hester in 1640[2]. The 1647 will of John Senior bequeathed to both Martha and Ester as "daughter of John" but did not say "which John" i.e. his son John or his grand-son John, son of Phillip. However he DID bequeath to "Mary Fowler, daughter of John Fowler my grandchild" which can be read as "John is my grandchild and Mary is my great-grandchild" thus supporting the idea that the John born in 1611 who married Hester Webb Eaton and had daughters Mary, Marth and Hester was son of Phillip, grand-son of John Fowler "Senior". His exact birth date comes from his marriage license. Hester Webb Eaton was the widow of William Eaton (married 1631, he died 1634 at Marlborough).
        • John born in 1637, son of John & Hester Eaton, not mentioned in his great-grandfather's will of 1647
    • MAYBE John Fowler (c. 1586-1651), son of John Senior (though a baptismal record has not been found) born about 1586 who would seem to be the man who married Joan Dawes in July 1611 at St. Mary and had children Christopher, William and Mark. After Joan Dawes death in 1619, John then married Joan Ryder and had children Mary, Anna, Jane, Samuel, Joan, Mark and Mathias. (Elizabeth (born 1625) was found to be daughter of John of St. Marys.) John's birth date would now be estimated to be about 1586 according to WIkiTree standards of about age 25 at time of first marriage.
      • John Fowler son of John Fowler baptized at St. Mary Marlborough on 15 Dec 1611, distinct from the man who married Hester Eaton assuming that his birth date of 7 Jun 1611 was correct on his marriage record.[3] The best fit for him found so-far is that he is the John Fowler who married Mary Tibbols at St. Mary, Marlborough on 1 Jul 1632.[4] This Mary would seem to be the Mary Fowler who was buried as "wife of John" at St. Mary, Marlborough on 31 Dec 1649.[5]
        • A Judith Fowler was baptized on 17 Nov 1640 at St. Mary, Marlborough[6] again a less usual name. This Judith seems more likely to be a daughter of John's first cousin (no WT profile currently) John Fowler (son of this John Fowler) and his wife Mary Tibbols. While this is speculative, it seems strange that Judith would be a sister of Hester "jr", known daughter of John Fowler & Hester Eaton yet the girls would be baptized 16 days apart.
    • Jone Fowler daughter of John Senior baptized 2 Jan 1602 BUT some transcriptions list this as "John" and assign a male gender while some list it as Jone/female.[7] The deciding vote seems to be cast by the 2 May 1625 marriage of Jone Fowler to John Hatte at St. Mary, Marlborough.[8] This would likely be the John Hatte and daughter Isabel Hatte listed in John Senior's 1648 will with Isabel listed as under 18 and living in London; the fate of her mother is not known.
    • William Fowler 1605-1668 son of John Senior, stayed in Marlborough, his son Thomas Fowler emigrated to New England
      • John Fowler son of William, b. 1628 at Marlborough, married and had children there starting 1652, seems to have stayed there
    • MAYBE a Mark Fowler listed in the 1645 will of the first John Fowler above who married Joan Dawes and Joan Ryder. Not listed in the 1647 will of John the Patriarch and no baptismal record found.
    • MAYBE a Thomas Fowler listed in the 1645 will of the first John Fowler above who married Joan Dawes and Joan Ryder. Not listed in the 1647 will of John the Patriarch and no baptismal record found.

Is this family structure correct? No blatant contradictions of records or timing has been found but it does mean that Phillip was likely born about 5 years earlier than previously estimated i.e. c. 1586 vs c. 1591, the latter date based on his own 1671 deposition in New England. This change would better support him having a son born in 1611.

Supporting Analysis

John Fowler & Joan Ryder
A John Fowler, widower married Joan Ryder, spinster at St. Peter & St. Paul, Marlborough on 21 Aug 1619[9] and the children below would seem to certainly be those of this couple. Assume he was born 1586 or earlier.

Per the marriage license bond she was born at Preshute in 1591 (a village 2 miles west of Marlborough which was also listed as her parish),[10] Joane was not previously married (listed as a spinster) and John was a widower and listed as a linen draper.

Could this have been the John "Senior" born c. 1565? No both because of age and because he apparently married Elizabeth Unknown in 1624 as a widower, right in the middle of the time that John and apparently Joan were having children. And, you would think that if these were the children of John Senior theat least some of them would have been listed in his will.

John's prior wife is now known to be Joan Dawes. A marriage record for John Fowler and Joan Dawes on 22 July 1611 in Marlborough has now been found.[11][12] This Joan died on 21 August 1619[13] John remarried just 4 months after the first wife's death. It also means Joan's surname at birth was Ryder and her mother had remarried to become Joane Chattell based on John's will. That means she was possibly the Joane Chattell buried in 1630 at Marlborough.

Children from first marriage:

  1. John baptized 15 Dec 1611 at St. Mary, Marlborough as John son of John,[14] married Mary Tibbols.
  2. Christopher born about 1614 was listed in John's will, no baptismal record found yet but over 21 in 1645 when John wrote his will
  3. William born 1615 was listed in John's will. Baptismal record found at St. Peter and St. Paul.
  4. Marke born 1617. Baptismal record found at St. Peter and St. Paul.

Children baptized all at St. Peter & St. Paul, all children of John, mother not listed:

  1. Mary baptized 22 Oct 1620[15]
  2. Anna baptized 1 Jan 1622, buried 19 Jun 1627[16]
  3. Jane baptized 1 Jan 1622 (twin to Anna?)[17]
  4. Samuel baptized 6 Mar 1624[18] m. Alice Hunt in 1651 at Marlborough, had children there through 1666, buried there in 1683. He was likely the "Samuel Fowler, cordwainer" appearing in an indenture contract in 1668 possibly taking on a nephew or other relative as the names William & Lemuel Fowler also appear.[19]
  5. Joan baptized 2 Mar 1627[20]
  6. Mark baptized 7 Feb 1629[21]
  7. Mathias baptized 16 December 1632[22]

Elizabeth baptized 8 Jan 1625[23] This child needs to be removed from this family since she has been found to be the daughter of "John of St. Mary." Her birth aligns perfectly with the marriage of John Sr. (b. 1565) and his new wife, Elizabeth.

Extra 'John Fowler & Mary Tibbols'
There was a John Fowler who married Mary Tibbols

Was this man the son of John Fowler born c. 1586 and his first wife prior to Joan Ryder? (No, because this Mary lived until 1649 well after his marriage in 1619 to Joan Ryder. The correct first wife is more likely Joane Dawes.)'

1645 will of John Fowler, husband of Joan Ryder

The will of John Fowler was written 8 March 1645 and probated in London on 24 Dec 1651.[24] The will listed the living children above for whom baptisms have been found plus Christopher. Christopher's baptismal records has not yet been found. The will listed John's mother-in-law as "...my wife's mother Joan Chattell..." and listed John's living wife as Joan. It also listed John's brothers Mark and Thomas Fowler.

We are missing primary records to prove most of the above but there are no blatant conflicts of timing or age if it ocurred as stated.

John Fowler buried 1647 - twice? A John Fowler was buried at St. Mary, Marlborough on either 16 September 1647 or on 16 Nov 1647 (specific date comes from findmypast.co.uk)[25] There is only one burial record as seen in the original parish register image but the month was not recorded. The prior burial record was September, the next burial record was December. It was almost certainly John Senior, he wrote his will in August 1647 and it was probated October 1648 so he died in that time. It was not the 10-year old John Fowler, son of John "Junior" who would have been listed as "son of John". But it could have been the John Fowler who married Mary Tibbols or the John Fowler who married Joan Ryder (which might have been the same man assuming neither of them were John Fowler Senior).

Nearby Fowlers

  • Mark Fowler married Agnes Wren on 25 Mar 1600 (double year not stated) at Ogbourne St. Andrew, Wiltshire about 2 miles from Marlborough.[26] Note that John "Senior" had a son Mark although probably not this man who was likely too old and that John "Junior" born c. 1594 had a son Mark. Given that the John Fowler who married Joan Ryder had a brother Mark and a son Mark, it seems like these men may be connected.
  • Jeremy aka Jeremiah Fowler of Poulton (about 25 miles North of Marlborough & Preshute) wrote his will 13 Feb 1682 and died 16 Feb 1682 (35 Charles 1, maybe it was 1682/83) bequeathing to his brother John of Cirencester (next to Poulton, John also named as executor) and John's children William, Edward, Joane (and again to Joane as "my cozen") & Barbara.[27] Barbara was certainly the girl baptized 21 Feb 1663 at Cirencester, Gloucester as daughter of John & Phyilis Fowler.[28] and Edward her brother baptized 16 Jun 1658 at the same place.[29] He further bequeathed to "cozen William Fowler of Hampton Roads" and to "cozen Fillis Fowler" who may have been his sister-in-law Phillis, the wife of beneficiary & brother John Fowler. The most interesting part of this will is a seeming bequest to "Mary Chandler wife unto Martha Chandler of Narlody" (probably not "Narlody" but it is a bit hard to read) which might "seem" to indicate Mary Fowler Chandler, daughter of Phillip Chandler of Marlborough as she married William Chandler in 1642 in Massachusetts and then lived in Newbury, Essex, Massachusetts. However she is thought to have died in 1666. Jeremy's brother John was provably NOT the John Fowler of Marlborough (c. 1586-1651) as he had been dead 30 years by 1682 although this John was the brother of the above Phillip and uncle of the above Mary Fowler Chandler. So it seems the "Chandler of Newbury", if the will truly says "Newbury" may be a red herring. Other Fowlers appear at Cirencester for example William Fowler married Jane Cripps there on 17 Apr 1649.[30]

The Calne Connection

Calne was known as a village of cloth-workers and Thomas Fowler appears several times in the late 1500s in a list of mayors & guild stewards.[31] This Guild steward entry for Thomas was also the only Fowler appearance found in the 1565 "Visitation of Wiltshire"[32] (no entry was found in the 1623 Visitation).

Many

Outstanding Questions

  1. Who was the first wife (or "wives before Elizabeth") of John Senior, when/where were they married, when/where did they die? Was one the Margaret who died at Marlborough in 1624?
  2. Exactly when and where were John Fowler Senior's sons Phillip & John born?
  3. Was the John Fowler who married Joan Ryder in 1619 the son of John Sr?
  4. What were the origins of the John Fowler who married Mary Tibbols in 1632 and did they have children?
  5. Was the John born in 1611 son of Phillip? Where was he born and who was his mother?
  6. When and where was Phillip married and who was his first wife? Current estimate is 1615 but if his son John was born in 1611 then he was clearly married earlier and was probably born closer to 1585 than 1591.
  7. How, if at all does Mark Fowler and Agnes Wren of Ogbourne fit into the family?
  8. Who was the John Fowler baptized 15 Dec 1611 at St. Mary Marlborough? It would be very unusual for it to be the man born 7 July 1611 who married Hester Eaton; by law baptisms were supposed to happen as soon as possible after the birth. Plus the three children of John Fowler and Hester Eaton named explicitly in the will of John's grandfather (Mary, Martha and Hester/Ester) mean that this man was proven to be grand-son of that John born c. 1556 (originally c. 1565 but now seemingly older as more records come to light).

Sources

  1. ↑ Wiltshire : Marlborough : St Peter : Phillimore's Transcript : "Parish Register" database, FreeREG (https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5ecf68a9f493fd2959f68f85 : viewed 9 Jun 2022) marriage John Fowler to Hester Eaton 12 Oct 1635
  2. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR9P-BVP : 25 February 2022), Ester Fowler, 1640.
  3. ↑ "England, Wiltshire, Church Records, 1518-1990", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DSB-1DS3 : 25 February 2022), John Fowler, 1611.
  4. ↑ Wiltshire : Marlborough : St Mary : Phillimore's Transcript : "Parish Register" database, FreeREG (https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5edda1d4f493fda893c8cbaa : viewed 7 Jun 2022) marriage John Fowler to Mary Tibbolls 01 Jul 1632
  5. ↑ Mary Fowler in 1649 Wiltshire Burials Index 1538-1990 Marlborough, Wiltshire, England $subscription required
  6. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR9G-KZD : 25 February 2022), Judith Fowler, 1640.
  7. ↑ "England, Wiltshire, Church Records, 1518-1990", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DS1-QGNT : 25 February 2022), Jone Fowler, 1602.
  8. ↑ https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/732796:5111?clickref=1100lvU38Whb&adref=&clickref=1100lvU38Whb&o_xid=01011l4xx5&o_lid=01011l4xx5&o_sch=Affiliate%2BExternal
  9. ↑ "England, Wiltshire, Church Records, 1518-1990", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6D3V-5K85 : 24 February 2022), John Fowler in entry for Joan Rider, 1619.
  10. ↑ Joane Rider in 1619 Sarum Marriage Licence Bonds Great Britain $subscription required
  11. ↑ "England, Wiltshire, Church Records, 1518-1990", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6D3K-7LDP : 25 February 2022), John Flowre in entry for Joane Dawes, 1611.
  12. ↑ https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=61187&h=902365249&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=5813&_gl=1*18h9ggs*_ga*OTk2MDk5ODkyLjE2NTQ2NDEwMzc.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY1NjE4MTU1NC40NS4xLjE2NTYxODE3MzMuNDE.
  13. ↑ "England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J8C9-Y48 : 24 February 2022), Joane, 1619.
  14. ↑ "England, Wiltshire, Church Records, 1518-1990", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DSB-1DS3 : 25 February 2022), John Fowler, 1611.
  15. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR9P-P29 : 25 February 2022), Mary Fowler, 1620.
  16. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR9P-12J : 25 February 2022), Anna Fowler, 1622.
  17. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J3RH-2Y2 : 24 February 2022), Jane Fowler, 1622.
  18. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J93Z-PPB : 25 February 2022), Samuell Fowler, 1624.
  19. ↑ UK National Archives 190 - Wiltshire and Swindon History Centre G22 - MARLBOROUGH BOROUGH COUNCIL The Chartered Borough Court of Quarter Sessions G22/1/138 - Apprenticeship indentures, mostly of paupers. "Fowler Lemuel William Fowler Samuel Fowler Cordwainer" Reference: G22/138/1/25
  20. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR9P-YQK : 25 February 2022), Joane Fowler, 1627.
  21. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR9P-GZB : 25 February 2022), Mark Fowler, 1629.
  22. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWKZ-C4N : 25 February 2022), Mathias Fowler, 1632.
  23. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7WN-CXG : 25 February 2022), Elizabeth Fowler, 1625.
  24. ↑ England & Wales, Prerogative Court of Canterbury Wills, 1384-1858 PROB 11: Will Registers 1644-1654 Piece 219: Grey, Quire Numbers 201-251 (1651) $ancestry.com subscription required
  25. ↑ "England, Wiltshire, Church Records, 1518-1990", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DSM-2B7Q : 25 February 2022), John Fowller, 1647.
  26. ↑ Marke Fowler in 1600 Wiltshire Marriages Index 1538-1933 Ogbourne St Andrew, Wiltshire, England $subscription required
  27. ↑ Wiltshire, England, Wills and Probate, 1530-1858 P03: Probate records of the Archdeaconry of Wiltshire F $subscription required and free link courtesy of ancestry.com
  28. ↑ "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLJJ-YY6 : 18 September 2020), Barbara Fowler, 1663.
  29. ↑ Gloucestershire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1813 for Edward Fowler Cirencester 1637-1799 $subscription required
  30. ↑ Gloucestershire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1813 Cirencester 1637-1799 $subscription required
  31. ↑ A history of the borough and town of Calne, and some account of the villages, etc., in its vicinity by Marsh, A. E. W Publication date 1904 Publisher Calne, Robert S. Heath [https://archive.org/details/historyofborough00mars/page/358/mode/2up p. 3580
  32. ↑ The visitation of Wiltshire 1565 by Harvey, William, fl. 1565; Marshall, George W. (George William), 1839-1905 Publication date 1897 Publisher Exeter : William Pollard & Co. p. 12




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K OBrien
I don't understand why Hester was disconnected from her family. Stickney may have not provided primary source documentation, but the information seems to come from Ipswich Town Records. The evidence seems indisputable to me. On Philip's profile Stickney's work is the major part of the profile with no worries about primary source documentation which is totally inconsistent.

On March 26, 1672, Joseph Fowler (son of Joseph, grandson of Philip) testifies about his “uncels Collinges hors.” (Stickney, Pg 27) Joseph’s maternal uncles were Henry Kimball, Richard Kimball, John Kimball, Thomas Kimball, Benjamin Kimball, Caleb Kimball, John Severance, Robert Dutch and Edward Allen. So “his uncels Collinges” would have to be on his paternal side i.e. one of his father’s sisters. Richard Collin(g)’s wife’s name was Hester meaning this Hester is a sister to Joseph Fowler. This seems like solid proof.

The following excerpts from Matthew Stickney’s book clearly link the Collin(gs) to the Fowler family i.e. Collings is mentioned with Margery Fowler’s husbands (Osgood and Rowell) and Joseph Fowler’s sons (Joseph and Philip Jr.)

• 1650: Christopher Osgood’s will was “proved by the oath of Daniel Rolfe, the 10th of the 8th mo. 1650, per me. Robert Lord.” Pg 13 (My note: Daniel Rolfe would have to be the brother of Ezra Rolfe who Hester was married to from about 1648 to 1652.)

• On 24 February 1651, Margery Fowler Osgood marries Thomas Rowell. • On 28 September 1652, Hester married Robert Collin(g)s. She names her first son “Philip.”

• In 1656-7 (12 Feb.) Thomas Rowell and Alex. Knight make an agreement with Robert Collings, to lease his farm in Ipswich for seven years from date, excepting two acres and the home lot for himself. (pg 16) (My note: Thomas Rowell would be Robert Collings’s brother-in-law.)

• In 1656-7 (12 Feb.) Alexander Knight agrees to let his farm in Ipswich, for seven years from date to Thomas Rowell and Robert Collings of the same place (brothers-in-law), with the exception of 2 acres and a home lot for himself. Pg 26


• In 1662 (16 June) Robert Collings was “a debtor of 5 shillings to the estate of (his brother-in-law) Thomas Rowell of Salisbury.” Pg 26

• ****In 1671-2 (18 March) from the court files it appears, that there was a controversy between Robert Collins and Deacon William Goodhue, in regard to a colt taken up by Amos Stickney at Newbury, which they both claimed, and 26 March, 1672, Joseph Fowler testifies about his “uncels Collinges hors.” Pg 27 (My note: (oseph would be son of Joseph, grandson of Philip.)

• In 1677 (10 Sept.) Robert Collins of Ipswich and “Eastor” his wife, sell land there to Philip Fowler, jr. (their nephew), which was ac, by them, 9 July 1678. Pg 27 (My note Philip Jr. was the son of Joseph Fowler)

posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
K OBrien
Veering off course, but why isn't Hester Fowler, daughter of Philip, considered the first wife of Jathnell Bird? According to Matthew Stickney in the Fowler Family book, about 1639 Philip gave Jathnell Bird land next to his. And, in 1679 Hester and current husband Robert Colllins were selling that very land. https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/15733/images/dvm_GenMono000984-00027-1?pId=197

If she was Jathnell's wife then she was Widow Bird who married Ezra Rolfe.

Additionally:

Hester named a son Philip which is not a common name.

Daniell Rolfe (brother of Ezra Rolfe) witnessed the will of Christopher Osgood (husband of Margery Fowler) of Ipswich on 19 April 1650. That seems like a potential family connection between the Rolfes and Osgoods which make sense if Hester Fowler married Ezra Rolfe.

posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
It seems possible, there is some text about that possibility on her profile. It looks like Stickney said there were land records but didn't provide primary source documentation so Anderson discounted it? I'd say keep pulling on that thread.
posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
Re: The Samuel Fowler, son of John Fowler and Joane Ryder, may not be the "Samuel Fowler, cordwainer, appearing in an indenture contract in 1668 possibly taking on a nephew or other relative as the names William & Lemuel Fowler also appear." There was a Lemuel Fowler at St. Mary who had a son Samuel in 1650. He would be 18 at the time of this indenture contract in 1668. Here is the baptismal record of Lemuel's son, Samuel. "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7WN-SXS : 25 February 2022), Samuel Fowller, 1650.
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
Right, my thought was that the Samuel born in 1624 was 44 years old in 1668 so he was taking on his 2 young (likely) relatives William & Lemuel as indentured apprentices. But the indenture contract itself isn't available from UK Nat. Archives, so it's hard to tell.
posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
I straightened out which Mary Fowler married Stephen Stanmor in 1654. Since the couple had at least 4 children and the last known child was born in 1671 it would have to be Mary, daughter of John (b. 1611) of St. Mary, who was born in 1636. The other Mary, daughter of John (b. 1586) of St. Peter/Paul, would be too old. So now we know that John (b. 1611) was deceased by 1654. Here is a burial record for a widowed Fowler of St. Mary who died in 1652 that may be this John. "England, Wiltshire, Church Records, 1518-1990", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DSM-6FZY : 25 February 2022), Fowller, 1652.
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
Hmm this one is a little weird. The 1652 record on familysearch doesn't give a first name, just "Fowler" and status widowed.

Then Mary's 1654 record says her father's name is "widow Fowler". What? Was that supposed to be the "widower Fowler", or did they write her mother's name down as the "father" because in a marriage record that's all they usually wrote, if anything at all? Did John or Hester die first? Puzzled...

The transcription https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBOR%2FPHILLIMOREMARS%2FYPWIL02%2F0089_1&parentid=GBOR%2FPHILLIMORE-MARS%2F0740150%2F2 shown by findmypast.co.uk for the marriage just says "Mary Fowller, d. of Widow Fowller" so it doesn't claim to name Mary's "father". But wait, John Fowler couldn't have been buried as "widowed" if his wife Hester was still alive 2 years later. I can't find another site with that 1652 burial that shows a first name.

Final comment edit - this may be him on 21 Dec 1651 at St. Mary, Marlborough which would leave Hester as widow fowler in 1654 https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=BMD%2FNBI%2F09723824

posted by Brad Stauf
edited by Brad Stauf
Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
child of widow X is a reasonably common formula for a child born with a recently deceased father. If you've got a likely burial for the father, then I would say that is the option which makes most sense.
posted by Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
Looking at the St Mary's records, the John born in 1611(outstanding question 5) is recorded to be a son of John. There are two earlier baptisms in the same parish for children of John - Joan in 1602/3 and William in 1605. That leaves a gap between 1605 and 1611 which is interesting - possibly a remarriage or possibly children of a different John. Then there is gap to the 1625/6 baptism in St Peter/Paul for Elizabeth, daughter of John of St Mary's which doesn't easily fit into the family groupings of baptisms either before or after.
posted by Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
K OBrien
Based on the will of John (b. say 1556) we are thinking that the John born 1611 is the son of John who was the son of Philip Fowler. Prior to finding the will of John (b. say 1556) nobody knew that Philip (the immigrant) had a son named John who apparently stayed in England. Joan (born 1602/3) and William (b 1605) are the children of John (b. say 1556) as they are mentioned in his will.

Elizabeth is definitely a problem fitting into the known families.

You have been so helpful --- Thank you so much!

posted by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
Elizabeth, I found the 15 Dec 1611 baptism of John son of John at St. Mary on ancestry.com https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61187/images/45582_263021009496_1189-00023 and added that to this FSP.

However, I don't think that is the John Fowler-15672 who married Hester Eaton. His birth date on his marriage license was 7 Jun 1611 and it would be unusual to wait that long to baptize a child per my understanding and as described here https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Birth-Baptism_Intervals_for_Family_Historians. I would expect to see an interval of at most a few weeks, not 6 months. We know for sure that John who married Hester was grandson of John "Senior" Fowler-15671 because the latter's will explicitly listed "John my grandchild" and bequeathed to 3 of his daughters (Mary, Martha & Hester). FYI currently John 15672 is shown incorrectly as the son of 15671 vs. what we think is his correct father, Phillip Fowler-195 because Phillip is PGM-managed and PPP I want to have our ducks in a row before attaching a child to Phillip. There is a note on his profile regarding this.

You are definitely right about the gaps in the children of John Senior-15671, and at least 20 years between his oldest known and youngest known children plus a proven remarriage based on his "now wife Elizabeth" named in his will.

posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
The only fit for Elizabeth baptized 8 January 1625/6 at St. Peter and St. Paul (but identified as a daughter of John of St. Mary) is as a daughter of John (b. 1556) and his new wife, Elizabeth. They were married on 2 November 1624. John would have been about 60 years old.

The only other John Fowlers at St. Mary were married in 1632 and 1635 so Elizabeth could not be their child.

posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
Right, we have to choose between a 65-year old father and re-labeling his son John as "John of St. Mary" even though almost all his records are at Peter & Paul. He did marry Joan Dawes at St. Mary, but then everything else was Peter & Paul.

I also agree that the 15 Dec 1611 John is a good candidate for husband of Mary Tibbols, it makes him 20 at marriage which is on the young side but certainly possible and it ties up more loose ends. Now who were his parents? sigh...

posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
Christopher and a potential brother "John" might have been baptized at St. Mary. We haven't found their baptism records and John (b. 1586) may not have moved to St. Peter and St. Paul until after their births. I would would "guess" that John Fowler and Joan Dawes are the parents of this John born 15 Dec 1611 but this birth is only 6 month after their marriage. Possible but not as convincing.
posted by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
This specifically is making it challenging. For example, Joan Dawes was married at St. Mary, had a kid at Peter & Paul and a couple others we don't know where and then she was buried at Peter & Paul. So which parish did they "belong" to?

By the way oops on Marke Fowler born 1617 we have him linked to a baptism in Peterborough, Northants. I'll look for one at marlborough. now that's weird, familysearch lists multiple places for the baptism, one includes wiltshire. i found another one that is not contradicting itself. volunteer indexers...

posted by Brad Stauf
edited by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
The 15 December 1611 baptism of John son of John at St. Mary could be the John who married Mary Tibbols in 1632.
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
I'm missing the obvious. John Junior married Joan Dawes in July 1611. Then they had son John 3rd in December 1611. John 3rd married Mary Tibbols in 1632 and for once, it was all in St. Mary parish. tadah and duh.
posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
Does the 5 month gap between the marriage and birth bother you? It is possible, but a little less convincing.
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
K OBrien
Brad, would you look at the image on Ancestry for John and Joan's marriage. Source #11 is a link to the image. Is that "April" written at the end of the line? What does that pertain to?
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
Right, that's here https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61187/images/45582_263021009496_1189-00008 and I'm not sure but that is written out on the right side margin on a bunch of records on that page along with "Elizabeth" and a couple "Cornwalls" and a couple that would take some deciphering. So I'm really not sure.

Re: the 5-6 months between marriage and baptism, it doesn't really worry me, I've seen it often enough. They were still married in church and the kid was still legitimate. I'm not saying that John & Joan Dawes "must" be the parents of that baptism, but it sure does eliminate a couple loose ends and doesn't require any particular suspension of disbelief.

posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
No, I agree. I have thought for awhile that John born 15 Dec 1611 was the son of John and John Dawes and likely the John who married Mary Tibbols. We basically have accounted for all the other John Fowlers.
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
I'm currently having a look at the transcriptions done of the Marlborough parish registers of St Peter & St Paul by the Wiltshire Family History Soc and there is a note in the parish register for Elizabeth baptized 1625/6 that she is a daughter of John of the parish of St Mary's. Which would indicate - given that none of the other baptisms are designated that way, that she probably belongs to a different family.

Also on the subject of William in the will but with no baptism, there is a baptism for William, son of John, on 24 Dec 1615. He was followed by the baptism of Mark, son of John, on 21 Sep 1617. Mark was buried, and noted again as a son of John, in Jan 1617/18. I am thinking that they would be the two children from John's first marriage. There is a burial following in April 1619 for Joan, wife of John Fowler - the putative mother of those two children. I have double checked these transcriptions against the parish register images on Ancestry and they are correct (more so than the corresponding Ancestry transcriptions!)

I will take a look at the St Mary Transcriptions and see what that throws up.

posted by Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
edited by Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
K OBrien
Thank you, Elizabeth. I agree that Elizabeth is in the wrong family. But, not unexpectedly, this opens up a new dilemma - which John of St. Mary's? We know of a John (married Hester Eaton) but not until 1635 and a John (married Mary Tibbols) but not until 1631. But this is really great information that we need to analyze!

Now the baptism of William, son of John, on 24 Dec 1615 is a huge find! This would be the baptism of the William, son of John and his first wife. Thank you for finding this! I updated the profile with this information.

And finally, the death of Joan in April 1619. I found that a couple of days ago and thought the same as you did that this is the wife in John's first marriage. I also found the marriage record of 1611 where John Fowler married Joan Dawes! I updated the profile with this information.

posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
* Baptism: "Wiltshire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812"

Marlborough, St Peter and St Paul > Parish Registers > 1611-1662 Ancestry Sharing Link - Ancestry Image (accessed 25 June 2022) William Fowler

posted by Elizabeth (Greet) Viney
Brad Stauf
Re: Elizabeth born 1625, I just had a thought. Good old John Senior born c. 1559 had just married Elizabeth Unknown on 2 Nov 1624. Did he have yet one more child at age 65-ish? His will listed him as "of the parish of St. Mary" and his last 2 children were baptized there. Although interestingly, he married Elizabeth at Peter & Paul. Who knows, maybe St. Mary was busy with a bingo game that day...
posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
We know that John Sr.’s will indicate he had a son John and a grandson John (son of Philip). Wouldn’t it be more likely that John Sr.’s son, John, would be the John (born about 1596) who married Joane Ryder? And Phillip’s son, John, would be the John (born about 1611) who married Hester Eaton? Overthinking the part of John Sr.’s will where he provided for children Mary, Esther and Martha may have inadvertently forced the focus on John (born about 1611) as his son. Maybe John Sr. was providing for his great-granddaughters?
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
I need to re-download the will to see the original text again. If I remember correctly, in some cases he specifically said "grandchild" and in some cases did not. If John born 1611 was son of Phillip is that it means Phillip was a little older than currently estimated and he was married before 1615 which goes back to my theory that his deposition where he said he was "above 80" actually meant "about 85" which is possible but seems to be unusual. But, you may be exactly right.

I'm starting to re-review the will, when he bequeaths to Mary Fowler it says "to Mary Fowler, daughter of John Fowler my grandchild" which can very much be read as "Mary Fowler my great grand-child". So that seems to point towards her father John being (possibly) the son of Phillip and being the John born 1611 which again means Phillip is a little older than we thought. Hester and Martha Fowler are both bequeathed to simply as "daughter of John Fowler" with no further definition.

I double-checked Isabel, no definition of relationship in the will but again given the 1625 marriage of Jone & John Hatte I would still agree that she is grand-daughter of the testator.

posted by Brad Stauf
edited by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
Oh very interesting - "Mary Fowler, daughter of John Fowler my grandchild!" Maybe John Sr. thought he had already stated that John Fowler was his grandchild and didn't need to repeat it on Hester and Martha. LOL -- forcing that puzzle piece just a bit!!

I always thought you were right about the "over 80" analysis. That little nuance had eluded me! I am doubly descended from the Fowlers -- from both Phillip and William so I have a deep interest in the Fowler research. I think the wills you found have brought up some exciting discoveries. If only there was a will for Mary (d 1649) or John (death unknown). That would solve even more mysteries...

posted by K OBrien
K OBrien
My guess is that discrepancy on the 16 September 1647 burial record vs. the 16 November 1647 record is a result of the Julian calendar. The record may have read 16 9 mo 1647 which would actually be 16 November 1647 but is often incorrectly transcribed. Thus, it seems 16 November 1647 is the correct burial.
posted by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
I agree with you on this, the usual "9th month" confusion.
posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
In regards to question #4, it would appear that Mary Tibbols married John Fowler (widower of Joan Ryder). Mary Tibbols married in 1632 and Mary (whose relative was John) died in 1649 in Marlborough according to the parish register. This means:

1) She could not have been a wife of John (born 1565) because John married Elizabeth in 1624 and Elizabeth was still living at the time of his death in 1647.

2) She could not have been the first wife of John (born 1611) because Mary was still living at the time John (born 1611) married Hester in 1635.

3) But she could have married John (born 1596). This John married Joane Ryder in 1619 and they had children until 1629. Joane who was only about 29 years old in 1629 had no more children after this. It appears that she may have died around this time and this John married Mary Tibbols in 1632.

posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
I do see Mary Fowler wife of John buried 31 Dec 1649 https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FWILTSHIRE%2FFHS%2FBUR%2F0336995 so that makes sense. I agree with #1, John born 1565 did not marry her and I agree with #2 although I was not aware of the 1649 burial when I wrote the FSP so I wasn't able to eliminate her as wife of the John born 1611.

Given all that, I agree with #3, most likely she was the second known wife of the John born about 1596. Sure would be nice to find the burial of his first wife Joan Ryder to cement this argument.

posted by Brad Stauf
K OBrien
In regards to question #2, it was Jone (a female) and not John (a male) that was baptized in 1602. There is a 1625 marriage record for Jone Fowler who married John Hatte in the register. It can be established with certainty that this Jone is the daughter of John Fowler since John's will of 1648 mentions his granddaughter, Isabel Hatte, as the daughter of John Hatte.
posted by K OBrien
edited by K OBrien
Brad Stauf
Re Jone vs John, I saw the profile you created & linked, thanks for that. I think what threw me about Isabel is that if I recall correctly, the 1648 will didn't call her his grand-daughter, just said she was "of London", daughter of John Hatte and under 18. I downloaded the will from UK Nat. archives but don't have it handy. So I wasn't sure of the relationship of the Hatte family to the Fowler family but the 1625 marriage of Jone Fowler & John Hatte would seem to answer that pretty well. No trace of Isabel's baptism yet, I'm sure you looked too. I could be remembering the text of the will incorrectly though.

I will also update this FSP when I have a bit of spare time in the near future.

posted by Brad Stauf