Alice (Corbet) Bardoff, no sources [closed]

Question

Alice Bardoff, née Corbet, has no sources, but her husband does, and these sources do mention her. Could these sources also be placed on her profile so that she will have something more than “Ancestry trees” as a source?

Comments

Hi Pip,

It would be beneficial to confirm her identity in a derivative way. At most it would benefit is a clue leading up to a source. I would highly recommend finding more adequate sources if possible.

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The source in the husband p’s profile was Burke’s 1883, so I think you are right. A better source is needed.

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Sometimes, the only way we know a woman exists is from derivative sources - she was the daughter of this person, the wife of that person, the mother of someone else.  If the source is valid and speaks of two individuals, why would it not apply to both?

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Right! I wasn’t saying she needed to be detached or left unsourced. So, you are correct, those sources apply to both. I just wanted those sources to appear on both for that very reason.

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I think the original comment by Steve, is the correct one; that we need to find better sources.  Burke's is very unreliable for this time period and I've yet to find anything else that confirms the existence of Alice Corbet or her husband Thomas Bardolf.

Although the daughter Rohesia is attested, there is some confusion over whether she is the sister or daughter of Doun Bardolf, and exactly when she married her two husbands.

Adding the Burke's reference from Thomas' profile to Alice's, maybe more detrimental, if the information it contains isn't ratified by something more reliable.

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I think I understand now, John. No to transferring the source, yes to finding a separate source, 

However, I still have some confusion here. Does Euroaristo keep the profile as is, hoping beyond hope that something will show up? Truly, we can’t leave it as is. How about this, John...  remove the “Ancestry.com family trees” from the source and list her as unsourced with a note in the bio stating what you said above. 

Told you I’d be on a learning curve here, 

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Hi Pip,

I realize you didn't reply to me in the last thread. I know often in research notes I'll make a list of places I searched for sources to build a rapport that the profile is indeed being worked. Should a profile remain unsourced? No because that's mythology however I like to think of wikitree as a puzzle it may take awhile to find all the pieces until the profile is genealogically sound.

As this profile is managed by an active member on wikitree it may be best to pull them into the collaboration with a Private message with a link to this conversation.

And to be blatantly honest I didn't look at the profile just took the question and commented at face value.

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It’s alright, Steve. I’m having to learn the WikiTree “mindset,” willingly, I might add. This is hard for me as I came to WikiTree without the skill set necessary to do the hard work. I was a lazy genealogist.

Now, I want to contribute as best I can, and just by reading many of the questions and answers here I know that I need to step up my game. And, I take correction better than most, or at least I hope so. (John has been very patient with me!)

I’ll go with your advice, and contact the PM, and see where that goes. Much appreciated!

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Hey I knew nothing about genealogy except google searching when I started wikitree in 2016. I had a notepad and scribbled hundreds of things down and endeavored to figure it out....

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And I still have handwritten notes from as far back as 30-0 years ago that I refuse to throw out! Pack rat, me.

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I'm not seeing anything about an Alice on supposed husband's bio. Anyway Burke has her not as Alice but as "Sibella...dau. and co-heir of Sir Robert Corbet." She was notoriously mistress of Henry I by whom she had several children, including Robert Earl of Gloucester and Reginald Earl of Cornwall.

Though in other places I see her called "Adela" but still noted as mistress of the king such that her daughter Rohesia (or Rose, as in Wikitree) Bardolf was half sister to Reginald Earl of Cornwall.

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You’re right! I went back and looked, and he daughter is mentioned, but not Alice. That leaves her with no source at all as “Alice.” Which edition of Burke’s did you use?

Thanks for the correction.

Answer 1

Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Peerage, Baronetage and ...

p 110 gives it as ancestry for the daughter under Russell, didn't look elsewhere as that confirmed my existing prejudice (i.e. what I have in my own database)

Answer 2

I am the one that oversees the profile (only because I'm a leader of EuroAristo and therefore took over PM on lots of pre-1500 profiles).  I have added sources to the profile.  I do recommend that you post on the profile first as opposed to a G2G post.  That generally is standard operating procedure, as far as I know, on Wikitree.  As soon as I got up today & saw the post on the profile, I took care of it.

Jim Weber's site is considered to generally be quite reliable, as he follows the soc.gen.medieval group.  It would be good if someone has time to search for other sources, though.  Perhaps Pip would like to do this, since she is the initial person who came across the profile.  Thanks.

Darlene - Co-Leader, European Aristocrats Project

Comments

Thanks, Darlene. I posted very late on Alice’s page. I apologize for not contacting you first. My mistake. I’ve learned my lesson! Again, thank you!

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You will find tens of thousand of profiles on Wikitree with nothing but ancestry.com as a source.  What I recommend is that you look for a source.  If you find one, then post it as a message on the profile (if you don't have access to the profile).  If you don't find one, then you can post a message asking the PM to provide one.  The reason that I suggest you look for a source is that you obviously had some sort of interest in the profile which made you look for it (or followed it up one of your lines).  The few of us working on or managing the EuroAristo profiles need all of the assistance we can get!  Once upon a time, anyone and everyone could upload gedcom files or create profiles for these HSA (historically significant ancestor) profiles.  It will take a very long time to get through all of them.  So we appreciate people helping by looking for sources, or if they can't find one, pointing out that a source is needed.  So I do appreciate that you pointed this one out.  Thanks!

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I’ll do my best to help out. I’m on a learning curve, and have been corrected three times in the last week. It doesn’t upset me. I need to learn these things!  (Brain doesn’t work well these days... too much on my plate! Getting short-circuited.)

Also, I responded to the request for project volunteers for the Euroaristo project. Haven’t heard back. John A. nudged me.

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John's the one that generally handles the awarding of the badge.  But I have gone in and awarded it to you.  Please let us know what area(s) are of interest to you.  Also, you need to be sure to familiarize yourself with the  EuroAristo naming standards as well as the recommended sources

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Can anyone find a link to the newsgroup discussion cited on Jim's tree? I think it would be better to use data cited there if that turns out to be more compelling than Burke and other older sources.

btb, I know Jim's tree is better than most, but I am still not comfortable with using family tree compilations as sources in wikitree. Better to check their sources and then cite those. In this case (an online family tree citing a posting in a newsgroup) we seem to be even farther removed from an actual source than usual.

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Monica, those that deal with medieval genealogy know that there are certain sites maintained by some individuals on which we can generally rely.  Jim's is one of those.  Others include Leo van de Pas' and Tim Powys-Lybbe .  As to the newsgroup, it's one that most of us that work with medieval genealogy follow:  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/soc.genealogy.medieval

In looking at the referenced post, it appears to also be from Burke's.  Burke's is known to widely contain errors.  However, it is a source and better than just an ancestry.com tree.

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Darlene, you are so kind. I hope I can be is some assistance on the project. Much appreciated!

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It seems there is an interesting twist to this. There was, it appears, a Henry de Pomeroy who married a Rohese (Fitzherbert) was was the  ill. dau. of Sibyl Corbet and Henry I. And this Rohese de Pomeray may be confused with the Rohese de Pomeray who was born a Bardolf and married a Henry de Pomeroy. So, this needs to be sifted a bit and, if the case, disambiguations placed on the various people who are being confused. The Corbet, Bardolf, and Pomeray families were closely related in multiple ways not immediately clear to me.

Re secondary compilation trees, I think most will agree it's better to use the material they are sourced from, which can then be critiqued or updated, than just trust that they are correct. I suppose they are better than having no sources at all, but not by much.  I could be mistaken, but I believe that even the best of these compilers are not medieval scholars. And using a rootsweb tree as a Wiki source just looks lame to me.

I'm not a medieval scholar either, but whenever I can, I source my own rootsweb tree extracts from the feet of fines, deeds, wills, i.p.ms, etc. So at least there's something to compare dates, names, places, etc. with. And these can be used to source a Wikitree entry. I don't see that (in this part of Jim's tree at least) so it's hard to assess how accurate or up-to-date he is. I've been researching my medieval roots for over 20 years and don't trust even my own notes, let alone someone else's. And I was also an active member of the gen-med group for many years, so not entirely out of the loop.

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Old, cranky, nitpickly, retired editor?!? Nah, not you! 

I think we all have become more cautious when attending to sources. I do this even with more modern profiles in my own family. 

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Monica, apparently there were two women named Rohese/Rohais who married into the Pomerory family.  

Henry I de Pomeroy married Rohese the daughter of Sibyl Corbet, and more likely with Henry FitzHerbert, rather than Henry I - see The Henry Project by Stewart Baldwin.

Henry I de Pomeroy and Rohese FitzHerbert, had a son Henry II de Pomeroy who married firstly Matilda de Vitre and had a son Henry III, and secondly Rohais Bardolf, who married secondly John Russell.

However Rohese/Rohais Bardolf is described as the daughter of Doun Bardolf, not his sister as we currently have on WikiTree.

This is all based on K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants: A Prospography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166, Vol. 2 Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum, Boydell Press, 2002.  And she appears to be citing Sanders, English Baronies, which I don't have, so I'm not sure what primary sources may have been used to develop this family group.

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Thanks, John, this helps a lot.

I haven't done much digging this far back as I seem to keep cycling back to the 15th and 16th centuries where I have some gaps to sort.

If you have a copy of DD, I am very envious.

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John, my guess is it's due to the charter mentioned in the Journal of the Royal Institution of Cornwall, Vol. I.  The charter is estimated to have been written between 1159-1175.  Per the Journal, the translation is 

"Reginald, son of King Henry, Earl of Cornwall, To all his men, French and English, Health. Know ye that I have granted and given to Rohesia de Pomeria, my sister, my Manor of Ridwri, in Cornwall, in free marriage, with all its pertinencies and liberties, in wood, in pastures, in waters, in mills. To hold, to her and her heirs, by hereditary right, of me and my heirs, as freely and quietly and honourably as I ever better and more freely held it. Which, that it may remain ratified and undisturbed, I confirm to her by my charter. These being witnesses: B. * Bishop of Exeter. Roger, Bishop of Worcester. Herbert Fitzherbert. William, my brother. William de Boterell, senior. Richard de Radd. Hugh de Dunstor. William de St. Clare. William of Poitou. Hugh de Valtort.Henry Malo Nepote. Robert de Com____.  Baldwin and Richard my grandsons. William de Boterell. Ralph de Ferrers. William de Widiell; and many others."

The book provides notes by Mr. T. Bond:  "The Episcopate of Roger, Bishop of Worcester, one of the witnesses to this Charter, extended from 1164 (10 Hen. II) to 1180 (26 Hen. II). The Charter therefore must have been made during that period.  The husband of Rohesia de Pomereia was Henry de la Pomerai who is described by Dugdale as a baron by tenure. The site of his barony was Berry Pomerai in Devonshire; and he likewise owned the castle of La Pomerai in the diocese of Baieux in Normandy. Having taken part with John, Earl of Mortaine, afterwards King John, in his rebellion against King Richard I, and having on that occasion seized and garrisoned St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, he forfeited his lands, and died shortly after the King's return from captivity in Germany. His first wife was Maud de Vetrie, by whom he was father of another Henry de la Pomerai, her son and heir. Rohesia was his second wife, and by her he had issue, Joscelyn de la Pomerai. After his death, Rohesia, his widow, married John Russell of Dorsetshire, and from this match has sprung the present Duke of Bedford."

It continues, "Mr. Stapleton, in his "Rotuli Scaccariae Normanniao," supposes Rohesia to have been daughter of Thomas Bardolf, by Rohesia, daughter of Ralph Halselinus, a baron of Nottinghamshire; which latter Rohesia he considers to have been likewise the mother of Daun or Dado Bardolph; but he was not aware of the existence of Lord Falmouth's charter above transcribed. This charter proves that Rohesia de la Pomerai was sister of Reginald, Earl of Cornwall; and it is likewise proved, from the great Roll of the Exchequer, that she was sister of Daun Bardolph; for, in the 3rd year of King John, John Russell owed 50 marks to the King's Exchequer for marrying the sister of Daun Bardolph. That the wife of John Russell was Rohesia, relict of Henry de la Pomerai, is abundantly proved by contemporary evidence; and, being shown above to have been sister, both of Reginald, Earl of Cornwall, and of Daun Bardolph, she could only stand in that relationship to both these persons by being born of the same mother; for the father of the Earl of Cornwall is known to have been King Hen. I., whilst the father of Daun Bardolph was Thomas Bardolph.

"Adela, daughter of Sir Robert Corbet, Lord of the Manor of Alcestre in Warwickshire, one of the concubines of King Henry I, was mother of Reginald, Earl of Cornwall; and she must therefore have been the mother of Rohesia de la Pomerai. This relationship is alluded to in a passage in Hoveden, who informs us that, upon the conquest of Ireland, King Henry II in 1177 gave the Kingdom of Limeric to Herbert Fitz Herbert and William his brother, brothers of Reginald, Earl of Cornwall, and to Joscelyn de la Pomerai, their nephew; but they refused to accept it, because it was not yet conquered; whereupon it was given to Philip de Braione. Herbert and William Fitz Herbert were sons of Adela Corbet, by Herbert, another husband. Whether Adela was ever married to Thomas Bardolph does not appear.

"After the death of Henry de la Pomerai, Henry his son paid a fine to the King to.have the same seizin as his father had of the Manor of Riduri; but it is difficult to explain why it passed to the elder brother, rather than to the son of Rohesia."

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I've had a look at that source and I think the notes by T. Bond, starting on p. 31 are still confusing the two Rohese/Rohesia de Pomeria (or de la Pomeroi)

Rohese, the sister of Reginald de Dunstanville, Earl of Cornwall who is granted the Manor of Ridwri in the Charter, is married to Henry (I) de Pomeria, the Rohese who was the sister (or daughter?) of Doun Bardolf was the second wife of Henry (II) de Pomeria, and as his widow married secondly John Russell.

That works better chronologically because the charter granted by Reginald, Earl of Cornwall has to be dated between 1164 and 1175 (the notes say up to 1180 but Reginald died in 1175 according to Keats-Rohan) whereas the Roll of the Exchequer that mentions John Russell, is the 3rd year of King John, which must be about 1202. - which I would think is a whole generation later.

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John, I agree.  I only brought up this source as you had said you wondered what primary sources may have been used to develop this family group.  So I was pointing this out.  

I recommend a new G2G post to continue any discussion on Adele/Sibyl Corbet in order to bring it to the attention of more people.