sources cited at Famous Kin (re Oswald, Roosevelt) but putative son Thomas isn't connected

Question

Below, please find sources listed as evidence for Thomas Carter (ca. 1725-1774) being the one who married Mary Hepworth (ca. 1710-1774), and was the purported son of this Daniel Carter.

Can these be ruled out; if not, then what is lacking for attaching Thomas as Daniel's son? The discussion about a possible match on Thomas' will on his profile is not very compelling, because the data in that will does not match his family constellation.

Sources listed at "Famous Kin" include:
 

1. Abstracts of Colonial Wills of the State of Georgia 1733-1777, Atlanta Town Committee of the National Society of Colonial Dames in the State of Georgia (1962), 27-28.
2. Georgia Genealogical Magazine, October 1967, Vol 26, p. 1781.
3. Miller, Joseph Lyon, The Descendants of Capt Thomas Carter of Barford, Lancaster County, Virginia, Richmond, Virginia: Whittet and Shepperson Printers. 1912, 210. 
4. Roberts, Gary Boyd, The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United States, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. 2008, 267.
5. Roberts, Gary Boyd, comp., Ancestors of American Presidents, Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society. 2009, 428.
    

Comments

Finding a DNA mismatch is no reason for people to just go breaking the line at any point they like.  You have to find out where the break is, by DNA, and it often won't be where you expect.

There are no "proven descendants" if we mean "proven biological descendants".

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The Thomas Carter that was removed on the basis of a mismatch is not the Thomas Carter who married Mary Hepworth; so, I think the PMs were correct to disconnect the other Thomas. 

From all accepted lineages for Roosevelt, Thomas Carter who married Mary Hepworth should be attached, because he is a gateway ancestor; further, no mismatch on DNA should be in evidence for him.

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RJ Horace I agree with you so I have reconnected Thomas to Daniel with notes explaining.  I belong to a Carter Y DNA project in Family Tree and I was told there that I should disconnect.  I have very strong circumstantial evidence connecting Thomas to Daniel.  It may be true that the DNA does not match but that still does not prove that they were not family.

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Hi John,

If you read the remainder of the comments here, more than one Thomas is in play. The other Thomas who married Mary Hepworth has been demonstrated at Famous Kin to be the son of Daniel.

We're still vetting whether the correct will was being described on his profile.

The Thomas that you have connected is not connected to Theodore Roosevelt, who is described in Daniel's profile: the daughter of Thomas Carter and Mary Hepworth, Ann / Anne Carter (1744-1809) is the gateway ancestor for Theodore Roosevelt and Oswald.

In summary, I think the reason the DNA doesn't match for the Thomas that you reconnected is because he is the wrong Thomas.

Once again, the sources supplied by Famous Kin are still being vetted. So it is premature to connect the other Thomas Carter, and his lineage does not fit with that described by sources.

Thanks.

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Hi RJ Horace:  Thomas that you seem to advocate connecting removes this Daniel as a great-grandparent of Roosevelt (and Oswald). Were you aware of that?

Some of the sources that I have listed for the more generally "accepted" Thomas require someone with great library access to reproduce them, but the will of Thomas who married a Hepworth has not been refuted - fortunately, I have located that, and also found an independent researcher who also found in transcribing it no Lewis/mother mentioned in it. I have seen no other source for any such will has been produced that would call into question Thomas who married Hepworth being Daniel's son.

Are the issues salient? Sometimes I fail to make myself clear.

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You are very clear.  You can not accept my word for what I read so in essence you are calling  me a liar.

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Here on WikiTree, we are required to use sources, not just someone's word. That is why using family tree data is not a source: it is okay to put such data in == Research Notes ==, so that researchers and readers can keep track of where one has looked, but also to acknowledge the work of others, especially when it is contributory or otherwise produces leads. 

All that I have asked (repeatedly) is for you to produce a source for the codicil to the will that you indicate you have seen. Sources are not sources if they are unable to be verified or reproduced.

I located and transcribed the will of Thomas Carter (1725-1774), in full from an official site ((Carter, Thomas) Wills, Colony of Georgia, RG 49-1-2, Georgia Archives). Another independent researcher, well before I did any of this work, located and transcribed the will (though the person who did that makes yet another claim regarding his parents, but fails to back it up - I doubled-back on the sources and the dates for the suggested parents by Joan Doughty just don't seem to fit; nevertheless, I discussed the alternate parents on Thomas' profile). Both Joan and my transcription of Thomas' will makes no mention of his mother, nor a mother by the surname Lewis in the will and codicil that has been located and documented.

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I have hesitated to say this but will go ahead.  I do not know how to find that material that listed his Mother.  I only work on my own family and do not work on other profiles.  I am an elderly person with limited computer skills.  I was trying to find something on my Thomas Carter ancestor and accidently found that.  I am 100% certain of what I read.  I shared this fact with the profile manager of Thomas Carter 1725-1774.  A C Billups I think and  I think she read it also and decided not to connect him to Daniel.  I shared with you the name of his mother as Mary Lewis prior to seeing the transcription of the will.  The transcription has 2 people with Lewis as part of their name.  Surely this raises a red flag to you that maybe his mother was named Mary Lewis and additional work needs to be done.

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I may have solved our mystery.  Go to vault.georgiaarchives.org and look under Colonial wills book.  Do not look under Colonial wills.  Thomas Carter's will comes up and appears to be a picture of two pages from a book.  On the right page and 11 lines from the bottom it says my Mother Mary Lewis; however, it appears that another person's will may be starting in the middle of the page immediately after Thomas Carter's will.  I have failing eyesight so I am asking someone with better eyesight to look at this and see if it can be read.  If indeed this is another will then I offer my apologies for insisting Thomas's mother was Mary Lewis.

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Thanks for that, John. That will, which follows Thomas Carter's, appears to be for a Jacob Lewis*, with a date of: 

1774-03-17 - who appears to be a match for Jacob Lewis of Kent, CT who died in Midway, Liberty, GA Jan 1774. His mother was Mary (Taintor, who died c. 1789, which would be consistent with her being named in her son's will) and father Samuel.  It is interesting that they did not redact what was irrelevant, in either case.

* Will Books, Colony of Georgia, RG 49-1-5, Georgia Archives

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There is another issue I think needs to be addressed.  Daniel Carter died in Nov of 1759.  Miller's book says Thomas son of Daniel did not leave VA until after his Father's death and he went to one of the Carolinas.  The research notes for this Thomas says he was named a commissioner of St Johns Parish in April of 1760.  These two dates seem to close together for this to be the Thomas son of Daniel.  Also was this St Johns Parish Ga.  Miller says he went to one of the Carolinas.

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Attention to details and facts is our only hope. And we have no reason or need to rush a judgment or decision. I will note again that the profile managers of Daniel Carter may not be aware that the statements of ancestry regarding Roosevelt and Oswald are currently not supported because a different Thomas Carter has been attached. 

Statements that were used to discount the Thomas Carter (1725-1774) who is the gateway ancestor were largely based upon information from an adjacent will recorded in a will book that have turned out to be clearly unrelated in anything other than the time sequence in which they were recorded.

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Regarding other matters just raised: When Daniel Carter died, Thomas Carter (1725-1774) was 34. At that age, it is not at all improbable - and I would say is highly likely - that he had already started his activities related to being a planter. (He also referred to himself as Esquire in his will, which is something in common with his highly probable father, Daniel Carter). Therefore, it would not be unreasonable for him to be recognized as an investor (commissioner) in St John Parish within a short time period (please see also the below footnote 2).

As is described on Thomas Carter's profile, he had land in Virginia, South Carolina and Georgia at his death. None of that is inconsistent, and is in fact consistent with him exerting influence within a year of his father's death. He also made provision (or the executors agreed, post mortem) that the land that he owned on Newport River, upon which his daughter was living, would be hers. A geographic proximity might be able to be established if we can determine which "Newport River¹" it is that is referenced, but the other mention of land does include South Carolina (and Virginia).² 

I would also note that the "Colonial Records of Georgia" citation regarding Thomas Carter being appointed Commissioner for St John Parish is tertiary reporting, which is why I put it in the Research Notes section, as opposed to the biography. I will attempt to locate the cited material.

With the other Thomas Carter who is in contention I am concerned that he is already attached to Daniel Carter, despite inconsistent DNA evidence, and no sources that directly link him to Daniel Carter - with the exception of very good onomastics (then again, several Carter lines were in the Virginia area at the same time). The reader may note that Thomas Carter (1725-1774) has in his profile a direct mention of Daniel Carter as his father, but he has not been linked (at least not by me) because the references that have emerged thus far are just vague enough that a possible other Thomas Carter might be a better match on identity. However, given the extent of success of Daniel Carter as a planter and the success of the Thomas Carter who died in 1774 and had significant land holdings across three states? I think that might weigh in his favor in terms of establishing a connection. 

I am not sure what evidence might emerge that will tip the scales toward either Thomas Carter, but I do not think that we have anything ironclad for either Thomas as a descendant. Competing theories on origins ought to be thoroughly examined and ruled out (for example, I examined the evidence on James Carter as a possible father of Thomas, and found limited data and nothing that would rule James Carter in as a clear parent of Thomas). At minimum, if the competing Thomas Carter is to remain attached as a son of Daniel in the interim, his relationship with the parents should be marked as uncertain.

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¹ I give and bequeath to my Loving Daughter Anne Oswald one tract of Land on Newport River containing one hundred Acres, whereon she now lives, to her the said Anne Oswald and her heirs for Ever. (The said ~Will satisfied as such Given by my Hand the 14th day of March 1774 J:Wright.) [apparent codicil date, on the reverse of page 1, as the probate/recorded date was 17 Mar 1774 - refer to the profile, or for the facsimile: (Carter, Thomas) Wills, Colony of Georgia, RG 49-1-2, Georgia Archives]

² I give and bequeath unto my loving Sons Hepworth Carter, James Carter, and Charles Thomas Carter all my Lands in the Province of Georgia consisting in the whole of about Eighteen hundred acres more or less. . .

 

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Addendum:
I have been able to validate a few of the Colonial Records of Georgia citations that a website blogger had provided. Also confirmed that Thomas Carter was recognized as an Esquire. Lastly, the Newport River appears to be what is now called North and South Newport River - North being in Georgia (didn't look at south), in Liberty County; so that's the most probable location where the Oswald daughter was living.

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I think one thing is certain.  Questions abound for both Thomas Carters and more work needs to be done.  One thought I had.  Miller says Uncles Tom and Joseph moved to one of the Carolinas.  Maybe someone needs to search for Joseph.  If we find him it might lead us to the correct Thomas.

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One factor that MIGHT be of importance.  Thomas Carter (1725-1774) had 3 sons.  The first is named Hepworth.  His wife's maiden name.  His third is named Charles Thomas.  Thomas being his name.  The middle son is named James.  Could this be a family name also?  James Carter has been proposed elsewhere as Father of this Thomas.

Answer 1

There are two different Thomas Carters born in 1725  Carter-5679 is my ancestor.  1725-1787.  The other is Carter-5586 (1725-1774).  5586 married a Hepworth and based on his will he is not the son of Daniel 1700-1759.  His will list his Mother and she is different than Daniel's wife.

Carter-5679 has potential DNA problems.  Two of his son's lines tested E -M2 YDNA.  Daniel's Father's lines have tested RM-269.

John Richburg.  Richburg-78

Comments

How do you know that it is "his will?" The very fact that the mother doesn't match suggests that it is not. Where is a virtual copy of this will? We cannot evaluate nor deny the lineage without having a copy, because the above-described references supposedly point to Thomas being the son of this Daniel.

I did not find the Miller reference to be dispositive, but perhaps I overlooked something. I am not that familiar with the line, but from all appearances, the sources should be able to be vetted.

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Search for his will and read it for yourself.. The children listed in his will match his children so I expect the Mother is listed correctly.

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vault.georgia archives Colonial wills Thomas Carter

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I see a will that is not transcribed at Wills, Colony of Georgia, RG 49-1-2, Georgia Archives for Carter, Thomas (1774-03-17). I don't read cursive well, but from an initial glance, this Thomas' wife's name is Mary. At the time of the writing of the will (8 Mar 1774), he resided at St John, Georgia. (A St John Parish does exist in Liberty County.) If this is the correct Thomas, he should be categorized as a slave owner of St John, Georgia. From a review of the listed children, this is his will, but I see no mention in it of his mother as being Mary Lewis, as is discussed on Thomas' profile.

Meanwhile, since the claim on Thomas' profile is that he is the 3rd Great-grandfather of Theodore Roosevelt, then the parents that are also in that line should be attached. Nothing is barring that. I am presenting the question here because it doesn't make sense that the Thomas who was wife of Mary should not be aligned on WikiTree.

At present, I see nothing about this will that rules him out as the son of Daniel Carter and Elizabeth Pannill and the husband of Mary. I also see a couple of points about his profile that stand correcting.

Noting also that 1) Thomas is described as a son on Daniel's profile on WikiTree, and that 2) Daniel's son Thomas Carter (d. 8 Mar 1774 in Newport, Liberty, GA), who married "Mary," has listed as his parents Daniel Carter (ca. 1700 - bef. 16 Nov 1759) and Elizabeth Pannill who have this complementary reference list at Famous Kin:

1.  Miller, Joseph Lyon, The Descendants of Capt. Thomas Carter of Barford, Lancaster County, Virginia, Richmond, Virginia: Whittet and Shepperson Printers (1912), 105, 209-211, Heritage Quest (Digital Library).
2.  Roberts, Gary Boyd, The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United States, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. (2008), 267.
3.  Roberts, Gary Boyd, comp., Ancestors of American Presidents, Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society (2009), 428.
4.  Miller, Lyon & Tyler, Lyon G., ed., Carter Genealogy in William and Mary College Quarterly Historical Magazine, Vol. 18, Richmond, VA: Whittet & Shepperson (1910), Jul 1909, No. 1, Page 54.
5.  Warner, Charles Willard Hoskins, Hoskins of Virginia and Related Families: Hundley, Ware, Roy, Garnett, Waring, Bird, Buckner, Dunbar, Trible . . ., Tappahannock, Virginia: unknown (1971), 415-416, Heritage Quest (Digital Library).

The W&M citation (# 4 in this comment list)  is partially confirmatory on the parents. I say partially, because little identifying information on son Thomas is given, other than he removed to Culpeper.:

16. Daniel Carter (Thomas,2 Thomas1) appears first in the Lancaster records 17 May 1725 as the attorney of Robert Biscoe. He was married and had children when his father made his will in 1728 as his portion of the estate was left to him without mention of reversion to his brothers in case of failure to have issue, which mention was made regarding each of the unmarried sons of Thomas Carter.

16 Nov 1759, the appraisement of the personal estate of Daniel Carter Sr was returned to court by his widow Elizabeth. It amount to #343.2.4 and included Negroes (sic), books, a sword, and the usual furniture. It was divided among (the following children and grandchildren):

74. Thomas, removed to Culpeper

The citation can be checked to confirm Thomas siblings - at a quick glance, at least the females are in alignment. Some of his siblings have their progeny reported. . .

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As I read the will it listed Thomas's Mother as Mary Lewis.

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Which suggests that that St John, GA will is probably not the will of Thomas, husband of Mary and son of Daniel.

Famous Kin says his will can be found at:

Abstracts of Colonial Wills of the State of Georgia 1733-1777, Atlanta Town Committee of the National Society of Colonial Dames in the State of Georgia (1962), 27-28.

We should check that.

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Backup citation (as described in Famous Kin) [Atlanta]̉ Published by the Atlanta Town Committee of the National Society Colonial Dames of America in the State of Georgia for the Dept. of Archives and History in the Office of Secretary of State, State of Georgia: Abstracts of Colonial Wills of the State of Georgia, 1733-1777. National Society Colonial Dames of America in the State of Georgia; Georgia. Department of Archives and History.

This is also available through interlibrary loan from Alderman of the UVA Libraries. I'll might see about getting it, but to answer the fundamental questions of his wife and descendants, the version on the Georgia archive is sufficient for those purposes.

. 

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Please take a screen shot and show a mention of his mother. I have re-read what I can make out, and I see no mention of his mother on the main two pages of the document.

His will mentions his wife as Mary Carter.

Son:

1. Hepworth (significant indication that they named a son using the wife's maiden name)

2. James 

3. Charles Thomas

Daughters:

1. Anne Oswald (very significant match on the family constellation - this does appear to be the correct will, after all)

2. Katherine Mutteair (sp?)

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Please allow me to list my circumstantial evidence that I used to connect my Thomas to Daniel.

1.  The line as I have it is Daniel, Thomas, Robert William and William.  All GGG Grandfathers of mine.  William prior to his death and with the help of his grandson prepared a written record of family history.

2.  Miller states that Thomas was born in 1725.  Our family history as written by William says that our Thomas was born in 1725.

3.  Miller states that Thomas son of Daniel moved from VA to the Carolinas.  Our family history says that Thomas moved from VA to the Carolinas.

4.  Miller says that Thomas had a large family.  Our records list the names of our Thomas's 9 children.

5.  William had 3 sons.  The oldest was named Daniel.  The second was named Thomas.  The third was named Robert.  All 3 sons named in order corresponding to the names of his male line with oldest to youngest.

Again I know this is just circumstantial evidence and not solid proof.

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I have updated the profile for Thomas Carter, the apparent son of this Daniel, with his fully transcribed will. The will makes no mention of any competing parents; in fact, it makes no mention of any mother, at all. The evidence at hand, however, is in no way inconsistent for Thomas who had land ties to both Virginia and South Carolina, to be the son of Daniel and Elizabeth Pannill.

The other Thomas Carter who is presently attached as of this writing just does not fit with the known and demonstrated ancestral history regarding Theodore Roosevelt and the Oswald line.

The different will that has been described for a Thomas Carter whose mother is a Lewis certainly belongs to such a Thomas Carter who is as yet unidentified. Perhaps that identification can help clear him up, but the Thomas Carter in that will would not be related to the Thomas Carter whose will has been transcribed. 

I would attach the photos of the will to his profile, but unless they can be put into a PDF, it's tedious to view them other than by going to: Will of Thomas Carter 8 Mar 1774, recorded 17 Mar 1774, (Carter, Thomas) Wills, Colony of Georgia, RG 49-1-2, Georgia Archives.

It's a great historical document, signed by the then governor Sir James Wright, in two different places (see also the back of the first page).

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Fann Fann I know you think I am crazy for insisting that this Thomas is not the son of Daniel but I know what I read and an addendum to his will listed his Mother as Mary Lewis. One of the persons signing this will has a first name of Lewis and another person signing has what appears to be a last name of Lewis. Clearly the Lewis name is a part of this family. You transcribe one person as Judah Davis. That looks like Judah Lewis to me. later in your transcription you actually show it as Judah Lewis.  The willl I read had his wife as Mary Hepworth and daughter as Anne Oswald.  It was the same Thomas as this and not a different Thomas Carter.

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This can easily be resolved by submitting a link or other reproducible reference to the will or addendum that you cite.

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Surely you can look at the Lewis name in his will and reason that there is a connection.

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Let's map out other possibilities:

Elizabeth Pannill could be mentioned in Thomas Carter (son)'s will because she died circa 1786; whereas, he died 1774.

Along these lines, Elizabeth Pannell could have easily remarried to a Lewis, since her spouse is reported as having died before 1759; whereas, Elizabeth Pannill lived until circa 1786.

On the other side: Mary Hepworth's parents are unknown; therefore, another scenario under the codicil to the will is that this "mother" mentioned in a codicil could be this Thomas Carter's mother-in-law; therefore, this is a potential lead on identifying Mary Hepworth's mother under a scenario where her mother perhaps remarried herself, or else reverted to her maiden name in the face of widowhood.

Just some things to keep in mind that might need to be ruled out as possibilities. 

Lastly, have you contacted the Daniel Carter and Elizabeth Pannill profile managers to discuss that the Thomas Carter you have attached makes them no longer progenitors of the Roosevelt line?

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Once again, yes, a Lewis name appears in the will:

Judah Lewis is a witness

Lewis Mutteair is a witness

However, these instances are NOT a mention of a mother with a surname of Lewis. Please produce evidence of an addendum, as you call it, where his mother is mentioned in his will. I transcribed it in its entirety*. As it is recorded, no mention of his mother is made.

* From: Carter, Thomas (1774-03-17). Wills, Colony of Georgia, RG 49-1-2, Georgia Archives. Will date 8 Mar 1774.