What do I do with profiles I created that have recently been orphaned by the Data Doctor?

Question

What do I do with profiles I created that have recently been orphaned by the Data Doctor?

Hey Francis & it's ok to be a novice. I'll tell you what I wish someone had told me, 1 -join a group 2- find a mentor. It would have asked me countless headaches.

I looked at the West profile Changes tab & the family info was never added & saved. I've done that. Added a ton of info & forgot to hit save. That's another reason why it's great to get into the habit of filling in the box: Explain your changes. Not only does it help you, & everyone else who looks at your Changes tab, but it's right above the Save button. If it's the last thing you do you'll remember to save your work.

As far as opening up a can of worms...you didn't. All of this discussion is normal. A little more sarcastic than normal tsk-tsk but normal nonetheless.

Always reach out & ask questions. Like Daddy always said "the only stupid question is the unasked one.'

commented Jun 14, 2019 by Lucy Robinson G2G6 Mach 2 (22.4k points)

3 Answers

Melanie, Although Bobbie's description of town, county, state, country is the way the United States is geographically organized, other countries may differ in the names of the items in their place hierarchy - such as borough, region, or who-knows-what. What matters is that we give these place names in hierarchical order, going from most local up to country. I don't know that we have a standard for not using the word "county" if there isn't ambiguity and don't think it would be wrong to use it here, however I do agree that it is not required here because the entire hierarchy is stated. It doesn't matter if non-Americans don't know that the second place is the county - all that matters is the hierarchy itself.

commented Jun 12, 2019 by Gaile Connolly G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)

Howdy Melanie, down here in these parts of the ole USA, when most folks are asked what parts they're from, they say "XXX county" when mentioning their county, and most official documents will say "XXX County" or ""County of XXX". So after reading several threads here in G2G mentioning the use of "county" in locations, I kind of decided for myself to use it on locations in profiles I create. Ambiguity or not, there's no problem understanding one way or another if I go ahead and use it.. Seems more respectful that way too; just doesn't leave any question as to that which I'm referring. So you go ahead and use your expanded place names proudly, so this old boy will understand where you're coming from.

commented Jun 12, 2019 by Art Black G2G6 Mach 5 (55.9k points)

Hey Nick, that sounds pretty good, but how about Terra instead of Earth, we already have a town called Earth in Texas..However, I suspect that Austin might officially prefer to be called the City of Austin. Interesting that you picked the state capital for an example, I worked for the State of Texas for many decades and dealt with many counties, so the title formality became sort of ingrained.

Actually, I'm glad you have the opportunity to add it or not, as you wish. I do too, and I chose to since there is no way to misunderstand it when used, barring things like copy/paste mishaps. And I have seen a number of instances of where it could go one way or another, for example "Caldwell, Texas"; made a couple of those mistakes myself before deciding to go with "County" as a personal rule.

That's one of the things that makes Wikitree a superior genealogy website, guidance and flexibility. (That and sources, sources, sources) Room for members to express themselves without compromising the whole. Y'all have a good evening, y'hear!

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Art Black G2G6 Mach 5 (55.9k points)

Aww, Melanie, that's not what I meant. What I meant is that it doesn't matter if you know the kinds of names given to the hierarchy of places in whatever country they're in - all that matters is that they are given in order of whatever the hierarchy is in whatever part of the world (or should I say solar system?) it is.

When I state place names - mostly in the US or Lithuania or Hungary or Poland - I don't always understand the kinds of geographical divisions, but I try to state them with as many of them as I can and hopefully in the right order, even though they're in a language I don't understand.

When it's in the US, some records only show the county and state, not the city or village or town (several of which are in the county) and for those I will state something like "Suffolk County, New York, United States" while if I know the lowest level place name I would write something like "Huntington, Suffolk, New York, United States" since there can then be no ambiguity.

When it's other countries, I probably do a lot of them wrong because I don't know what kind of things are inside what other kind of things and sometimes don't know what kind of thing the place I'm talking about is. For example, Tarnow (in Galicia most of the time I'm talking about it, sometimes in Austria, now in Poland plus it has some kind of mark on either the a or the o - I don't remember which at the moment) might be a village or a town or a city or it could be a larger place that contains villages, towns, and/or cities - sometimes I see it one way and sometimes the other and I am clueless about what kind of place it is, even though I use that name a lot for BMD locations. I think - again not sure - the name for the larger kind of place (like what "county" means to me) is "gubernatoria" but I don't even know what language that's in if it is the right name for it.

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Gaile Connolly G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)

Part of the point I am trying (once again) to make is .. someone used to a different naming "style" isn't going to understand that "blah, Cook, Illinois" or "blah, whatever, Texas" necessarily means county. I STILL want to go looking for a place (town/suburb) in Illinois named "Cook" whenever I see that without County.

It's bred into me.

If I write Paynesville and forget to put anything else, you have no idea where I mean, even though I do.

If I simply put Texas .. where do I mean?

Melbourne?

We put extra information so that other people unfamiliar with our "way" of doing/saying/writing things will also understand.

This is why State names should NOT be abbreviated, even if "everyone" knows them. LA. City or state? What's ME? Where would I find NV, NM, AZ, AK, AL, WA, SA, NT, SI?

NSW is pretty easy, for most. But there will always be that one person who does not know. For that one person we should be spelling it out in full .. New South Wales, Australia. Queensland, Australia (not Queensland, Central, Sri Lanka .. unless you actually MEAN Sri Lanka). Tasmania, not Tassie, or Tas.

If this is to be a truly international site, it has to be recognised that we don't all spell words with a zed, or without a u .. and we don't stick a fullstop after the r on Mr, or Dr .. and we don't all see something as funny when it makes others of us roll in the aisles, and that so, so, so many of us see this # as the hash mark (or a number sign), not a "pound" sign (or WHY is it called a "hash tag" and not a "pound tag"‽). THIS £ is a pound sign .. it has been for longer than I've been alive.

I could go on, but I won't. I simply believe, rather strongly (if y'all haven't guessed that already) that place names should be spelt out in full, no matter how many people already "get it" in short form.

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Melanie Paul G2G6 Pilot (423k points)

Art--the...Earth part came from the old days in Austin and was featured on many a t-shirt & bumper sticker.

Melanie, I have to disagree. The pattern is NOT the SHORT form--it is THE form.

Wikitree can be an international site without putting county where it doesn't belong. There are orders for things everywhere. It is up to us to educate ourselves when we're viewing data from another area--not for the other area to change it's methods to suit us.

For instance--I'm a Texan (if you haven't guessed that yet!) so when I look at Italian records it is up to ME to understand the pattern--- Commune, Province, Region

as in Guardia Lombardi, Avellino, Campania, Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Lombardi not to expect that everyone who creates a profile for an Italian to spell out Guardia Lombardi, Avellino Province, Campania, Italy

Because wiktree is international we can't expect everything to be exactly what we're used to or how we like it...it's all part of the learning curve.

Just my opinion.

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Nick Andreola G2G6 Mach 8 (89.1k points)

Melanie, you said:

someone used to a different naming "style" isn't going to understand that "blah, Cook, Illinois" or "blah, whatever, Texas" necessarily means county.

They don't have to know that "Cook" or "whatever" in your examples means county. As long as the "blah" is there, they understand that Cook or whatever is the next higher level group of the blah level localities. It's when the "blah" is missing that you have to say "Cook County" or "whatever County" to be clear that you're not talking about the lowest level place (be it village, town, city, whatever).

Other countries don't use the word "county" but have different words for the groups of smaller places … I don't know what they all are, but as long as we include ALL the names in the hierarchy, I think we're fine not specifying the name of each hierarchy level.

Also this has nothing to do with abbreviations which I completely agree are a total no-no.

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Gaile Connolly G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)

As you mention .. what about when the "blah" isn't there, because all that's known is the basic area (such as the English registration districts)? When people still only, then, use Cook, Illinois (it's the one I remember most, because I apparently have cousins there somewhere), *I* want to go look for a town or suburb named "Cook", only to not find it, or to maybe find one, but it would be incorrect as it is the County that is meant, not some bitsy town/village/unincorporated whatever you call them.

Shouldn't we be using as much information as possible, to make it easier on the reader? To avoid possible/potential confusion?

(Those English registration districts can be very misleading, when people think they are the actual place name .. and familysearch does NOT help with any of this, as that's where the truncated place names for the US seem to come from.)

.

I don't add the Parish/Shire/whatever names for Australian places, because we don't ever use them. If we used them, I would add them, so it'd be Traralgon, Gippsland-Latrobe Valley, Victoria, Australia, rather than just Traralgon, Victoria, Australia; or Caloundra, Caloundra Shire, Queensland, Australia, or Bega, Bega Valley Shire, New South Wales, or Balga, City of Stirling, Perth, Western Australia. (Balga was simpy Balga, Western Australia when I lived there, no matter what it is now.)

Even with that, the way America seems to use "suburb" isn't how I grew up understanding the word. So there is always confusion unless things are spelt out .. and I believe in spelling it out for the one person who is confused and too bad about the 999,999 who DO understand. So they have to read a few extra words. Awwww.

(I'm starting to talk in circles, so it's time for me to stop.)

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Melanie Paul G2G6 Pilot (423k points)

So counties are used and, therefore, people would know which county they are in.

Not using a named county in a mailing address means nothing. We aren't writing letters here, We're trying to convey something to people who may not "get" the local idiom.

. . . it behooves us to remember that the use of City, County (without county spelled out), State, Country itself is culturally defined and there are many other cultures we are dealing with where this particular way of listing places is not common. It helps clarifying what we are talking about for others with a different background.

answered Sep 7, 2017 by Helmut Jungschaffer

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If I write the location Skogen, Grönahög, Älvsborg, Västergötland, Sverige would you be able to determine which of them is a county?

When dealing in emigrants from Sweden I try to always write what is parish and county, if not in locations then in the birth notice in the bio, then you don't have to guess.

I for one would love to find an emigrant of mine with detailed instructions of where they lived instead of location just stating "New York". Is it the town, is there a county named New York or is it a State?? Just because it might be obvious to an American don't mean it is to everybody.

answered Sep 7, 2017 by Maggie Andersson

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The emphasis in the above quotes is mine, but it shows that this "discussion" has been taking place for years before I showed up on Wikitree, or G2G.

(Those are just two I have found. I could go on. And on. And on. And on.)

And on.

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Melanie Paul G2G6 Pilot (423k points)

Anecdotally, plenty of people in the U.S. who live in the U.S. in states where counties are important don't know where they live.

I used to work for a medical alert company. I started in the alarm/call center. One of our jobs was to determine exactly where our new clients lived, so we could call the correct long distance number for their local "911" (emergency services dispatch) center. We would ask the person where they lived, what street, what town, what county, etc. Then we would call the (non-emergency line of ) the dispatch center for that town/county.

It was very surprising how often we were told something like "No, 7805 West Franklinville Road is not in Franklin Township or even in Washington County. It's a half of a mile past the line into Jefferson County, in Green Township. Your client just thinks they live Franklin Township because their mailing address says Franklinville. Green Township doesn't have it's own post office."

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Thomas Fuller G2G6 Mach 9 (94.0k points)

No county government in Connecticut is not a recent development. All property records and vital records are kept at the town or city level.

The dissolution of county government in Massachusetts was done within the last 10-15 years. Some of the counties in Massachusetts voted to retain a regional government as in the Franklin Regional Council of Government (FRCOG) or the Hampshire Council of Government (which is now attempting to disband). Massachusetts does still have County Sheriffs, and Registries of Deeds and Probate. Vital records have always been recorded by the individual towns and/or cities.

As far as place names go - I usually don't include the word County in the birth and death location, but I won't remove it if it is there. I will often use it in the biography - especially if a record only lists the county as many marriage records do. I am now rethinking whether or not I will change things around to use the word County in the birth and death location to make it easier overall.

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Emily Holmberg G2G6 Pilot (156k points)

On Connecticut county government:

"Almost all functions of county government were abolished in Connecticut in 1960 [within my lifetime, therefore recent by historical standards], except for elected County Sheriffs and their departments under them. Those offices and their departments were abolished by an act of the state legislature effective in December of 2000 [within the lifetime of almost every WikiTreer]."

Massachusetts has not completely abolished county government. In any case, for the vast majority of US profiles, the county is a relevant geographical parameter regardless of modern governmental organization. If a county existed at the time of the event on the profile, it's an important part of the location field.

commented Jun 13, 2019 by Living Tardy G2G6 Pilot (768k points)

Answer 1 · 2019-06-12T20:25:28+0000

I'm confused. The profile is not orphaned, you're the profile manager. Perhaps you mean it is unconnected since it has no relatives?

The recent changes on the profile mostly just amount to removing USA from the birth location, which, at WikiTree, is appropriate for the time period. I do see that it appears as if a lot of info may have been deleted, but within minutes it looks like it was all back.

Did the profile have relatives previously that were changed? Otherwise, I'm not sure where the problem occurred.

Answer 2 · 2019-06-12T21:18:00+0000

Cheryl,
The data doctor made 4 changes within a minute or 2, but only the first and fourth were actual changes - the others did nothing. Marion reverted back to before the last change, but did not put back the information that had originally been in the biography section. That was:

== Biography ==
First Name Francis
Last Name at Birth West
Current Last Name West
Preferred Name Francis
Gender Male
Birth Date 1710-00-0
Birth Location Kingstown, Kings, Rhode Island, USA
Death Date 1786-00-00
Death Location Westerly, Washington, Rhode Island, USA
Father ()
Mother ()
Status Indicator on Birth Date guess
Status Indicator on Death Date guess

Although the data doctor should not have removed all that (and the comment about removing USA from locations is not at all correct for what was done), I would hardly agree with your saying that the profile was gutted - there was really nothing of any value there to begin with - all that appears in the data section and that list of data items is not what I would think of as a biography of a person in any regard.

If you look at what Marion restored, she included United States in the death location because that event was after 1776. The data doctor should not have removed that, although it was correct to remove USA from the birth location, since that event was before 1776.
In addition, the source citation needs to be re-written because what the gedcom import process put there is not adequate. Also, that source appears to be an ancestry family tree, which is not a valid source. If that family tree has any sources for the person then you can enter those sources on the profile, otherwise please try to find records for birth and death dates/places and add them to the profile.

If you have any questions about how to do any of this, please post them here and you'll find lots of people ready, willing, able … in fact, anxious … to help you. This is a wonderful community and you'll find that we all help each other here, no matter what the question is. I promise you that everyone here was new once and had to learn the WikiTree ways of doing things and others before us provided that help generously and graciously.

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What do I do with profiles I created that have recently been orphaned by the Data Doctor?

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