Help with this 1835 German Church Record In Latin

Question

The 1835 German church records for my ancestor Maria Elizabeth Becker, which apparently mixes Latin & German are throwing me for a loop.  I am monolingual in English and using google translate.

Family Search has four records for this one marriage with four different url/http's.  There are even different dates for the marriage, all in Oct., but different dates. 

One of several things that puzzles me is the location of the marriage. Two German genealogy databases have the location nice and easy and straight-forward. Niederklein.  I thought it meant that they were likely married in the Catholic Church in Niederklein the Church of St. Blasius and St. Elisabeth.  Common Sense, It was the only Catholic church in the village, and probably the church the Becker family attended for generations.

But in contrast, the four marriage records of Maria Elizabeth’s marriage on her Family Search profile page each have different url’s/http’s, and even different marriage dates.  AND it looks like (Latin/German) they have the marriage in Herdorf, a town about 80 miles from Niederklein.  A knowledgeable/experienced member of the Germany Project thinks that Maria Elizabeth had two marriages, a church wedding (Niederklein?) and a civil wedding (Herdorf?)

 This one 1835 German marriage record has my brain twisted into knots.  Maria Elizabeth Becker’s Family Search profile page on Family Search is ID # GQNT-Z41. In the SOURCES Folder, you will see the four 1835 Latin/German marriage records with the different url’s and marriage dates and locations.  I hope G2G can help. 

Comments

Hessen did not have civil registration before 1874. 2 weddings didn't exist in 1835.

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Can anyone please help in how to find the 1839 marriage of Maria Elizabeth Becker and Joseph Koch in Neiderklein?  Educate me on using the right genealogy database or website? This marriage record would prove that there are two different Becker family's getting tangled together, one in Neiderklein (mine) and a different one in Sassenroth/Herdorf; so I would really like to find it.  Please?

Maria Elisabeth Becker  http://gedbas.genealogy.net/person/show/1235686820

Marriage	Spouse	Children
January 31, 1839 Niederklein, Marburg-Biedenkopf, Hesse, Germany	Joseph KOCH

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Niederklein lies in the Catholic Diocese of Limburg. Their records are not online. See their website (in German): https://bistumlimburg.de/beitrag/dioezesanarchiv/

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Thank you very much for this information!

Answer 1

[Heavily edited from original]

FS does not have Catholic records from Niederklein, Hessen- I checked the Catalog. I believe it lies in the Diocese of Limburg, who has not permitted FS to film their records. 

Two or more marriages- in all of the recent residences of the bride and groom- is common enough, but if there is no connection to Herdorf, there has to be suspicion. I sometimes participate in the FamilySearch forum, and there was a recent thread there https://getsatisfaction.com/familysearch/topics/wrong-records-attributed-to-wrong-parish, in it was discussed how FS got the place name wrong for a whole set of records in this same collection. The place names are added at the end of the indexing process, and are done in one go for the whole register. In the case on the FS Forum, there were two similiarily named places, and FS had gotten it wrong for an entire register containing hundreds of records. Maybe a similar mistake has occured here. 

I'm quite good with Latin Catholic records, but unfortunately, non-members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ("Mormons") can only view the images at an FHC or Affiliate Library- due to a contract between FS and the Catholic Diocese of Trier, so I can't help you any further. 

Comments

Thank you.  All of your comments have added to my learning curve, and are appreciated!

Answer 2

You've put your own WikiTree profile rather than Maria's so just for convenience it's https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Becker-7851

Her baptism record and marriage record both have identical birthdates of 14 March 1807 so I would take that over the current profile date of 1811.

Deutschland, Rheinland, Bistum Trier, katholische Kirchenbücher, 1704-1957, database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPS4-Q81V : 5 April 2018), Maria Elisabeta Becker, ; citing Baptism, certificate , Kirchen, Altenkirchen, Rhein, Preußen, Deutschland, Bistumarchiv (Diocese Archive), Trier, Germany

Deutschland, Rheinland, Bistum Trier, katholische Kirchenbücher, 1704-1957, database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QRYW-C4MM : 12 January 2019), Joannes Petrus Jung and Maria Elisabetha Becker, 27 Oct 1835; citing Marriage, certificate , Herdorf, Altenkirchen, Rhein, Preußen, Deutschland, Bistumarchiv (Diocese Archive), Trier, Germany

From google maps I see that Kirchen, Altenkirchen and Herdorf, Altenkirchen are neighbouring towns so Niederklein seems highly unlikely. Although there are four sources for the marriage, three of them give the same date so I'd just use that. As Abm says, we can't see the images so can't fully investigate but this supposed Niederklein marriage just seems like a mistake.

Edit: I see the profile has a birth in Niederklein too so it looks as if the wrong person's data has been used.

Answer 3

The 1807 birth (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPS4-Q81V) and the 1835 marriage (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPS4-D2RG?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=GQNT-Z41) are the same person.

1807
Place: Sassenrot
Born March 14, baptised 15.
Name: Maria Elisabeta
Parents: Jo[hann]es Petrus and Elisabeta Becker
Godparents: Maria Elisabeta Schneider and Jo[hann]es Engel Becker

1835
Dismissal of Maria Elisabetha of Sassenroth
October
22nd, serving the servant, at/to Rev. lord vicar curate of Kreth in Herdorf dismiss Maria Elisabetha Becker (born 14th of March in Sassenroth) legitimate daughter of Johannes Petrus Becker, deceased, and Elisabetha born Schneider, married couple of Sassenroth, for holy matrimony with Johannes Petrus Jung, legitimate son of Johannes Jung, deceased, and Elisabetha born Weber, married couple of Herdorf.

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It's a different question entirely whether this is the same person as the Maria Elisabeth Becker who was supposedly born in 1811 (https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/GQNT-Z41); despite multiple claims to the contrary on the profile, I see no sources for the entered birthdate.

I give up on images on G2G. (There is no URL. That's the whole point. That's why I want to attach a picture. So what does it want to attach a picture? A URL. IF THERE WAS A URL I WOULDN'T NEED THE EFFING PICTURE!) I've uploaded the image snippets as sources on the FamilySearch profile instead.

Comments

Sassenroth: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/20685026

Herdorf: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10773036

Niederklein: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/20318028

I think these are two different Becker families who happen to share their names.

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NOW I AM REALLY CONFUSED.  Parents Johann & Elizabeth were married on February 13, 1809 Niederklein. Their first child was born that year (1809) and their 2nd child Maria Elizabeth was born Sept. 19, 1811.   . That information comes from two different German genealogy databases.  There should not be an 1807 birth record for Maria Elizabeth... her parents weren't even married until 1809.

Father's profile (shows marriage date) in one:  http://gedbas.genealogy.net/person/show/1235686814

Maria Elizbeth's Profile on two different German databases:   http://gedbas.genealogy.net/person/show/1235686820      http://www.online-ofb.de/famreport.php?ofb=neustadt_hessen&ID=I37645

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GEDBAS is a user submitted website, just like WikiTree, FamilySearch, Ancestry, geni etc. The quality of data depends on the quality of sources, and like many of the other websites that is often lacking. On the other hand, Ortsfamilienbücher are put together from primary sources and can generally be trusted. In your case I would go with what the source from the OFB says.

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It would be really sad if the German Website(s) information I used to create the new profiles of an entire family of 12 on both WikiTree and Family Search is junk.  My family tried to find the Beckers' for almost 20 years... I finally succeed using GEDBAS and the Local Family Book Neustadt (Hessen) Family Report.  there is a logical common sense timeline for my ancestors' family in those databases.  The parents marry in 1809 and start having kids.  Our USA records seemed to match in a lot of areas too.  

An 1807 birth of daughter Maria Elizabeth messes it all up and blows up the timeline. If the database information (x2) is wrong, then my profile work is wrong too.  Really Frustrating.  Here it is.. 1809 Marriage       Johannes BECKER     http://gedbas.genealogy.net/person/show/1235686814

birth	August 25, 1783	Niederklein, Marburg-Biedenkopf, Hessen, Germany
marriage	February 13, 1809	Niederklein, Marburg-Biedenkopf, Hessen, Germany

1811 Birth Of  Daughter   Maria Elisabeth Becker     GEDBAS http://gedbas.genealogy.net/person/show/1235686820

grade	Date	Place	Sources
birth	September 19, 1811	Niederklein, Marburg-Biedenkopf, Hessen, Germany
marriage	January 31, 1839	Niederklein, Marburg-Biedenkopf, Hessen, Germany
death	January 6, 1864	Niederklein, Marburg-Biedenkopf, Hessen, Germany

Local Family Book Neustadt (Hessen)   Family reporthttp://www.online-ofb.de/famreport.php?ofb=neustadt_hessen&ID=I37645
* (birth) 19.09.1811 in Niederklein, Marburg-Biedenkopf,  Hesse,   Germany

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As others have said GEDBAS is work others have submitted. It is not original genealogical sources. You should never copy online family trees. You may need to "start from scratch" with this family, and carefully check all the evidence and reasoning so that you can confidently determine whether the Niederklein or Herdorf family are your ancestors. If one married in 1835 in Herdorf, and the other is said to have married in 1839 at Niederklein, they would appear to be two distinct individuals.

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That is part of the problem.  I do not copy work from family trees.  I honestly thought I was legitimately sourcing from two genealogy databases (like the Great New Mexico Pedigree Database) and not from family trees.  Seems I was mistaken to believe that the Local Family Book Neustadt (Hessen) Family Report, and GEDBAS contained vaild/sourced information.  Looks like I found my Becker ancestors, but I cannot trust/use any of the information that is in the 12 profiles that I found and used to create new profiles on WikiT and FS.   Man has this been a bad day..

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I think it's virtually certain that this is two unrelated Johannes Becker and Elisabeth Schneider couples. There's one couple in Sassenroth who got married at some point before 1807 and had a daughter Maria Elisabeth in 1807; she married Johannes Petrus Jung in 1835. There's another couple in Niederklein who got married in 1809 and had a daughter Maria Elisabeth in 1811; she married Joseph Koch in 1839.

FamilySearch has church record indexes for Sassenroth (https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/466317) but nothing for Niederklein. For the latter, the Ortsfamilienbuch for Neustadt (http://www.online-ofb.de/neustadt_hessen/index.php?lang=de) is likely your best source; it lists transcripts of the Catholic church register as its first source. (My German is limited, but I don't see any indication of where/how they accessed said transcripts. Possibly it was in person at an archive or the church itself.)

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1. What functional difference is there between a genealogy database and a family tree?

2. An Ortsfamilienbuch ("Place-families-book") like the one for Neustadt is generally pretty reliable. Yes, it's subject to transcription errors and misreadings, but the same is true of any index or transcription. Don't let the best be the enemy of the good.

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Like J Palotay said Ortsfamilienbücher are generally reliable (except for the occasional transcription error) and should be considered good sources. You have one source based on an OFB and that should be the one to follow.

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If the flag wasn't accidental, could whoever set it PLEASE explain?????????

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Hi... I just wanted to assure you that it was not me.  I would praise you for taking the time for a 2nd and 3rd look at my G2G question and coming up (and explaining) your 2nd family theory.  With your record translation (thank you!) that shows a different Becker family residing in Sassenrot/Herdorf (80 miles from Niederklein) and with the ofb indicating that my Becker ancestors did live in Niederklein, and that their daughter married there...I think you did an excellent job of genealogy reasoning and deduction!  You took extra time to help me unravel something in a different language and contradicting records that I could not understand.  I believe you "nailed it" with your two Becker family conclusion, and I am grateful!