Ellyw ferch Thomas (abt. 1170 - 1218)

Born about 1170 in Llan-Gors, Talgarth, Breconshire, Wales

Descendants

Died 1218 at about age 48 in Deheubarth, Wales

Problems/Questions Profile managers: Liz Shifflett [send private message] and Wales Project WikiTree [send private message]

Ellyw ferch Thomas is managed by the Wales Project. Join: Wales Project Discuss: wales_project

Biography

Ellyw married Rhys Fychan,^[1] son of yr Arglwydd Rhys, Prince of Deheubarth.^[2]

"In 1213," Rhys Fychan (born c1165) "was placed in the king's prison but released in 1215 after giving his son Rhys Fychan as a hostage. Thereafter, he was called Rhys Gryg and his son later become known as Rhys Mechyll who also named a son Rhys Fychan, usually called Ieuanc."^[1]

Rhys Gryg was mortally wounded in the 1234 attack on Carmarthen castle. He died at Llandeilo-fawr^[3] and was buried at St. David's Cathedral.^[4]

Research Notes

The sources do not agree on her father (either Trahaearn or Thomas, who were brothers) or whether Ellyw was the first or second wife of Rhys Gryg. Nor do they seem to agree on the number of his children, when they were born, or by whom.

Father: Wolcott names her "Ellyw (c. 1170) ferch Trahaearn ap Gwgan ap Gwgan ap Bleddyn ap Maenyrch", citing "Pen. 128, 47a & 883a".^[1]

Bartrum's chart shows her as "Ellyw f. Thomas (or Trahaearn)".^[5]

According to Boyer, she is said to be the daughter of Thomas or Trahaearn ap Gwgon, but which one is not known and will probably never be discovered.^[6]

Birth Place: "Llan-gors, Talgarth, Breconshire, Wales", apparently from either Boyer or a FamilySearch PID, needs a valid source or a reasonable explanation.^[6][7] If not, both it and Category: Brecknockshire should be removed. Searching WikiTree on 8 July 2023 for a profile representing Thomas's brother Trahaearn (who might be her father, instead of Thomas) found Trahaearn ap Gwgon (1131-1176), to whom she is related through her husband (Connection). Trahaearn's profile shows that he was born in "Llan-Gors, Breconshire, Wales". As of 8 July 2023, WikiTree does not appear to have a profile for either Thomas's brother Trahaearn or their father Gwgon/Gwgan.

Birth/Marriage/Death Dates

Birth: removed "about 1180" birth year from datafield, which was triggering database errors since the profiles attached as her children had birth years before that date (as of 6 July 2023). When Wolcott's estimated birth year of c1170^[1] was added, many of the children's profiles still triggered DBEs, since their profiles had birth years that were still before she was of child-bearing age. The birth years on their profiles have now been updated and research notes added to clear the DBEs. ~ ls, 7 July 2023

• basis for 1180 birth was apparently the unsourced 1158 birth year for her father. Since her father is the end of the line, it may be that his birth year was based on hers, with the assumption that he was about 21 when she was born (in 1180). His birth year has now been changed to c1140, based on Wolcott's estimated birth year for her of 1170^[1] and considering the time and place (men would be closer to 30 than 21 when they married and started a family).^[8]
• c1170 works with her husband's estimated birth year of 1150 (per WikiTree as of 6 July 2023) or c1165 (as estimated by Wolcott).^[1]

Marriage: about 1185, based customs of the time/place (women first married at about 15)^[8] and her estimated birth year of 1170.^[1]

Death: "1218" is based on her husband's second marriage in 1219.^[4][5][9] However, sources do not agree as to the order of his wives, so perhaps "1218" should be removed (although that date was used when updating birth years given on the profiles attached as her children on 7 July 2023).

Death Place: "Deheubarth, Wales". Like her birth place, her death place has no support as of 7 July 2023. It appears to be based on her husband's father being Prince of Deheubarth, which her husband was not.

Rhys's Marriages

It is said that Rhys Gryg married three times and that Ellyw^[1] was either his first or second wife.^[9] If Ellyw was the mother of Rhys Fychan - later known as Rhys Mechyll - then they were married before 1213 (he was imprisoned 1213-1215, obtaining his release by "giving his son Rhys Fychan as a hostage").^[1]

Wolcott names the three wives of "Rhys Fychan aka Gryg, born c. 1165" as

1. Joan, daughter (c. 1180) of Earl Richard de Clare [9]
2. Ellyw (c. 1170) ferch Trahaearn ap Gwgan ap Gwgan ap Bleddyn ap Maenyrch [10]
3. Gwenllian (c. 1165) ferch Elidyr ap Owain ap Idnerth ap Cadwgan ap Elystan Glodrydd [11]

[9] ByT 1219; Bodleian Add. C-178, 32

[10] Pen. 128, 47a & 883a

[11] Pen. 134, 390

Bartrum also names three wives.^[5] Richardson implies that Rhys Gryg had two wives, saying that he married in 1219 a daughter of Richard de Clare,^[4][10] as does Cawley.^[9]

While neither Richardson nor Cawley identify the first wife of Rhys Gryg, the second is identified as a daughter of Richard de Clare by both:^[4][9]

• [?Joan], third daughter of Richard de Clare and his wife Amice of Gloucester^[11]
• "MATILDA [Joan] de Clare, [widow of WILLIAM de Briouse,] daughter of RICHARD de Clare Earl of Hertford & his wife Amice of Gloucester"^[9]

Richardson's entry for "[?Joan] de Clare" names only her children with Rhys Gryg - Maredudd (born in or before 1222) and Howel (no mention of any other children).^[4]

Apparently, the Brut y Tywysogion is the source for identifying the two wives as (1) unknown and (2) "the daughter of the earl of Clare".^[12]

According to Rhys Gryg's mostly unsourced Wikipedia article, he married "Mathilde, the daughter of Richard de Clare, 3rd Earl of Hertford" and in 1234 "was succeeded by his son Maredudd. He left another son known as Rhys Mechyll (d.1244)".^[13]

Bartrum's chart for "Rhys Gryg ab Yr Arglwydd Rhys", d. 1234, shows his first wife and mother of his son Rhys as "Ellyw f. Thomas (or Trahaearn)". It shows his second wife (m 1219) prefaced with a ? as Matilda ferch Richard, Earl of Clare, widow of William de Braose, who died in 1210.^[14] His son Maredudd has annotations making it unclear whether his mother was a de Clare or Rhys's third wife, Gwenllian ferch Elidir ab Owain.^[5]

The WikiTree profile for Joan (Clare) de Clare (abt.1185-aft.1219) includes the following in a "Disambiguation" section:

'The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Rhys the Hoarse married the daughter of the earl of Clare" in 1219.'^[9]

Some sources name this daughter Maud and others name her Joan. Cawley and some others are inclined to treat Maud and Joan as one person. Richardson treats them as two different persons (both daughters of Richard).^[15][16][17]

See this section of Maude's profile for additional details. Conclusion: "Following Richardson", Maud de Clare did not marry Rhys Gryg.^[15][17]

Children

How Many? As mentioned above, sources do not agree on the number of his children. For example,

• Bartrum lists 16 children for Rhys.^[5]
• Boyer, which is said to follow Bartrum, says that Rhys and Ellyw ferch Thomas (his first wife) had 12 children.^[6]
• Genealogics lists 13 children.^[18]

Known Children: Rhys (by one wife) and Maredudd and Hywel (by another wife). Richardson mentions two children for Rhys Gryg (Maredudd & Hywel).^[4] Cawley says he had one child, Rhys, by his first wife (not "from his father´s marriage to Matilda de Clare")^[19] and two by "his [first/second] wife" (Maredudd & Hywel).^[9] The article on Rhys Gryg posted by the Dictionary of Welsh Biography lists only Rhys and Maredudd.^[3]

• Rhys, said to be the son of Rhys Gryg's 1st wife,^[9] was exchanged as a hostage for his father in 1215.^[1] In 1227, he is said to have captured his father and exchanged him for Llanymddyvri castle.^[19][12] Although at the time, 14-year-old Welsh males were considered men,^[8] he was more likely to have been closer to 20, so perhaps he was born c1205. His WikiTree profile as of 7 July 2023 has 1190 as his birth year.
• Maredudd is said to have been the heir of Rhys Gryg,^[13] which would make him the first-born son. As of 7 July 2023, his profile has no estimated birth year in the datafield but text states that he was a younger son of Rhys Gryg, citing the Dictionary of Welsh Biography's article about him (Maredudd).^[20]
• Hywel: Lord of Llanddarog, living 1227. He married "NN f. Henry".^[21]

Birth Order: Sources also do not agree on the birth order of his children, assuming that they were presenting by the source in birth order. Nor do the sources all agree that Rhys's mother was not the same as Maredudd's and Hywel's, as children listed for Rhys Gryg ap yr Arglwydd Rhys ap Gruffudd ap Rhys by his wife Ellyw sometimes include all three.^[18][22]

The following list has been edited, removing the "of, , Carmarthenshire" given for all of them except Ieuan (which had "of, Llanfihangel Cwm-du, Breconshire, Wales") and the "Abt 1200" or "Abt 1230" birth years (all but the last four in the original list had "Abt 1200", with the last four - Gwenllian, Jonet, ferch [unknown], and Meurig - having "Abt 1230". The way the list was originally presented, the information appeared to be from Boyer, and the given names from the original list remain with a citation to Boyer (ferch/ap names were deleted, with "son" or "daughter" added instead).

• daughter Arddun,^[6] Arddun - #3 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Llywelyn aka Llywelyn Ddiriaid II - #4 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Maredudd (born in or before 1222)^[4] - #6 per Genealogics^[18]
• daughter Angharad^[6] - #11 per Genealogics^[18]
• daughter Ellyw^[6] - #1 per Genealogics^[18]
• daughter Ales - #2 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Rhys "Mechyll" (d. 1244, age ~ 44 years),^[6] ap Rhys Grûg ap Lord Rhys ap Gruffudd, Lord of Dinefwr (d. 1244) - #13 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Iorwerth^[6]
• son Ieuan,^[6] Ieuan ap Rhys Gryg ap Rhys of Llanfihangel Cwm Du - #7 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Gruffudd^[6] - #12 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Caradog^[6]
• daughter Gwenllian "Gethin"^[6] - #9 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Hywel, lord of Llandderog - #10 per Genealogics^[18]
• daughter Jonet^[6] - #5 per Genealogics^[18]
• unnamed daughter^[6] - #8 per Genealogics^[18]
• son Meurig^[6]

In WikiTree, as of 8 July 2023

• eight children are attached as Ellyw's - Ellyw, Arrdun, Rhys, Angharad, Iorwerth, Llywelyn, Caradog, and Jonet (born between 1183 and 1217).
• one child is attached as Joan's - Maredudd (no birth year in the datafield).
• Hywel does not have a profile.
• Ales, Ieuan, Gruffudd, Gwenllian, "unnamed daughter", and Meurig are not attached to either and do not appear to have WikiTree profiles.

Wives and children by generation, per Bartrum:^[5]

generation 4 (with a question mark)^[23]

• wife "(c)": Gwenllian - ? El. G. 49^[24]

generation 5

• self: Rhys Gryg - Rhys ap Tewdwr 8
• wife "(1)": Ellyw - Bl. ap M 1
• wife "(2)": Matilda f. Richard, widow f William de Braose, died 1210,^[14] married 1219

generation 6

• wife: "(2)": NN f. Gilbert -> Matilda f. Richard (generation 5)^[14]
• Arddun, married 5 Einion ap Gwallter - Tr.F. 4
• Angharad, married 6 Ieuan Goch - Einion ap Ll 10
• Ellyw, married 5 Richard ab Einion - Eionion ap G. 2
• Rhys Mechyll l. 1227, d. 1244, married 6 Matilda d. Reginald Braose - daughter of (1), Ellyw
• Iorwerth - Rhys ap Tewdwr 12
• Ieuan - Rhys ap Tewdwr 12
• Llwelyn Ddiriaid - Rhys ap Tewdwr 12
• Gruffudd - Rhys ap Tewdwr 11
• Maredudd - son of (2), (c) - Rhys ap Tewdwr 11
• Philip - Rhys ap Tewdwr 13
• Hywel - Rhys ap Tewdwr 13
• Caradog - Rhys ap Tewdwr 18

generation 7

• Gwenllian Gethin, married 7 Cydifor ap Rhys - Cyd. ap D. 1
• Jonet, married (1) (a) 7 Gr. ap Cad'Fawr - Llw ap G. 1, married (2) (b) Sir John Marbury of Weble & Dilwyn
• NN, married Cadwgon ab Owain
• Meurig - Rhys ap Tewdwr 17

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8 1.9} Darrell Wolcott, "The Children of Lord Rhys", Ancient Wales Studies (accessed 16 November 2019).
2. ↑ Wikipedia: Rhys ap Gruffydd (accessed 7 July 2023).
3. ↑ ^{3.0 3.1} Dictionary of Welsh Biography: Rhys Gryg ('Rhys the Hoarse,' died 1234), prince; he is also called 'Rhys Fychan', by Emeritus Professor Robert Thomas Jenkins, (1881-1969), accessed 7 July 2023.
4. ↑ ^{4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.5 4.6} Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd edition (2011), volume I, page 449, CLARE 1.vii.
5. ↑ ^{5.0 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.4 5.5} Bartrum's chart for Rhys Gryg, Rhys ap Tewdwr 8 (acessed 16 November 2019; link updated 1 July 2023).
6. ↑ ^{6.00 6.01 6.02 6.03 6.04 6.05 6.06 6.07 6.08 6.09 6.10 6.11 6.12 6.13 6.14} Carl Boyer, 3rd. Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans (Santa Clarita, CA: n.p., 2004), page 304.
   Note: The source needs to be consulted to verify the information attributed to it.
7. ↑ From "Welsh FamilySearch Wales" (personID=I5118). FamilySearch moved that tree several years ago & I was not able to find the PID again.
8. ↑ ^{8.0 8.1 8.2} Darrell Wolcott, "Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws" (accessed 26 May 2023).
9. ↑ ^{9.0 9.1 9.2 9.3 9.4 9.5 9.6 9.7} Charles Cawley, Rhys Gryg/the Hoarse, entry in "Medieval Lands" database (accessed 14 November 2019).
10. ↑ The fine print in Richardson's entry for "[?Joan] de Clare" includes a possible earlier date, of 1217.
11. ↑ Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd edition (2011), volume I, page 446, CLARE 1.
12. ↑ ^{12.0 12.1} See Brut y Tywysogion (acessed 15 November 2019). Brut y Tywysogion: Or, The Chronicle Of The Princes Of Wales (Cambridge Library Collection - Rolls). See amazon.com.
13. ↑ ^{13.0 13.1} Wikipedia: Rhys Gryg (accessed 7 July 2023).
14. ↑ ^{14.0 14.1 14.2} The information about Matilda replaced "NN" ("no name") daughter of "Gilbert III" in Bartrum's chart for Rhys Gryg - "Earl of Clare (m 1219)" remained for both - with a footnoted citation:
    • See Michael Altschul, A Baronial Family in Medieval England, The Clares 1217-1314, 1965, pp. 29-31.
15. ↑ ^{15.0 15.1} Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry (2013), volume II, page 183 CLARE 5.vii.
16. ↑ Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd ed. (2011), volume I, page 314 BREWES 2.
17. ↑ ^{17.0 17.1} Richardson shows Maud, wife of William de Brewes, separately. ~ Royal Ancestry, II:183 CLARE 5.v.
18. ↑ ^{18.00 18.01 18.02 18.03 18.04 18.05 18.06 18.07 18.08 18.09 18.10 18.11 18.12 18.13 18.14} Genealogics: Entry for Ellyw ferch Thomas ap Gwgon ap Gwgon ap Bleddyn (accessed 7 July 2023), which has no dates for her, gives c1190 for her husband's birth year and lists 13 children. Her entry includes the "Remark" "father may be Thomas' brother Trahaearn". Two sources were given for her entry as of 7 July 2023:
    • Bartrum, Peter Clement, Welsh Genealogies AD 1400-1500, vol. 4. Rhys ap T. 8
    • Bartrum, Dr. Peter Clement, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 8 vols and 1400-1500 18 vols. Bleddyn ap Maenrych 1; Rhys ap Tewdwr 9
19. ↑ ^{19.0 19.1} 'Rhys & his first wife had one child:' Rhys Mechyll, Lord of Dinefwr (-1244). 'The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Rhys the Hoarse was captured at Llanarthneu by his son Rhys the little, and for the castle of Llanymddyvri was liberated" in 1227[539]. If this event is correctly dated, Rhys must have been too old to have born from his father´s marriage to Matilda de Clare.' ~ Cawley, entry for Rhys Gryg/the Hoarse (accessed 7 July 2023).
20. ↑ Dictionary of Welsh Biography: "Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg (died 1271); prince of Deheubarth", by Professor Thomas Jones Pierce, (1905-1964), accessed 7 July 2023.
21. ↑ Bartrum: Rhys ap Tewdwr (accessed 8 July 2023.
22. ↑ See this Changes page for Rhys Gryg, where the information about 12 or 16 children was imported in a merge.
23. ↑ Note that Bartrum (Introduction, page 7) uses a square instead of a circle around the generation number to draw attention to it. In this case, because Gwenllian is in an older generation than her husband (Rhys Gryg in gen. 5; Gwenllian in gen. 4).
24. ↑ Note that Bartrum (Introduction, page 4) uses a letter to indicate that the order of a wife is not known: "If the order of a man's wives, or a woman's husbands is not known they are labelled (a), (b), etc."

• The Bartrum Project, digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum (mirrored from the defunct Cadair site by Geni: Bartrum Genealogical Project - free login required to access the charts). See additional information about Cadair in G2G.
• Cawley, Charles. "Medieval Lands": A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families © by Charles Cawley, hosted by Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG). See also WikiTree's source page for MedLands.
• Richardson, Douglas. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. 2nd edition. Salt Lake City: the author, 2011. See also WikiTree's source page for Magna Carta Ancestry.
• Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. Salt Lake City: the author, 2013.

See also:

• Wikidata: Item Q110152932 for Ellyw ferch Thomas ap Gwgon ap Gwgon ap Bleddyn, which included "father Thomas ap Gwgon ap Bleddyn" and nine children, had a single reference for the information and relationships given as of 7 July 2023: Genealogics op cit.

Acknowledgments

Thanks to Richard Ragland for starting this profile. Click the Changes tab for the details of contributions by Richard and others.