James (Grierson) Grier (1604 - 1666)

David, forgive my tardy response... I have only just seen this. Are you saying that it is your view that the Grier/Greer family in Ireland is unrelated to the Griersons of Lag? There is a village called Rock in Northumberland, about 5 miles north of Alnwick and about 8 miles from Shilbottle where the Turners hailed from.

Stuart, firstly, the names Grierson and Grier were used interchangeably in that period, for instance,a legal record of 1671: From the Calendar of Deeds - Kircudbrightshire Sheriff Court - 1625-1675, transcribed at the instance of the Marquis of Bute: "Obligation (1[st] December 1674) made at Clauchan of Dalry 9[th] January 1671 - John Greir in Cairne & Roger Greirsone, his son owe £37 Scots to David Chartors, burgess in New Galloway."

Even in my family in the 18th Century, some children of the same parents, at the same church, were baptised variably as Grier or Grierson. There are many other examples. Secondly, the attaching of Grierson as a sept of MacGregor is a relatively recent happening, probably within the recent 250 years. During the proscription of the MacGregor name, Grierson was used as an alias, but so were many other names, most of which later came to be recognised as "septs" of the clan Gregor, eg, Black, White, and so on. Thirdly, we have no record of James Grierson going to Northumbria. The Grierson name has never been associated with Rock Hall at Alnwick, the list of owners is known. I speculate that at some time the names Rockall and Rock Hall have been conflated, because somebody wanted to give the James and Mary Greer of Rock who migrated from Northumbria to Ireland a connection back to Scotland. The culprit is probably Thomas Greer of Seapark, born 1837. The Rock Hall myth was promulgated in the discredited "Carrickfergus" tree of the 1870s. For a list of owners of Rock Hall, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Hall,_Northumberland

I am wondering why James, evidently born Grierson, became Grier?

James' father, Sir William Grierson, appears knighted by James VI (1st of England) in 1608. There is peculiarity here in that James VI was opposed to the MacGregors and the Griersons were a known sept of that clan.

During the 16C, the MacGregor clan appears to have been ‘agin the government’ and had developed a reputation for lawlessness. And despite being fellow Catholics, Mary, Queen of Scots, had allowed her council to pursue a campaign of harassment against clan members. The Queen’s opposition to the MacGregor was mild in comparison to her son, James VI, who seems to have carried out a vindictive war against them. Persecution of the clan continued after the Union of the Crowns as James ordered his adherents to “rout out and exterminate all that race of malefactors”.

The name of this 'wicked and unhappy' clan was banned after the after its members killed more than 140 rival clansmen at Glen Fruin near Loch Lomond on 7 February 1603. Following the bloodshed, James VI, in a bid to dismantle the clan, demanded that MacGregors - and Gregors - drop their name or risk punishment by death.

As Griersons was a known sept of MacGregor, might some family members have determined, for reasons of safety, to alter the family name?

One report I read shows that Sir William Grierson may have instigated a change of name to 'Grier' in response to the this royal edict.

Nevertheless, when William died on January 21, 1629, at the age of 62 , one albeit unproven report says he was shot - perhaps as being a “MacGregor’ but that is pure speculation on my part.

James certainly removed his family from Dumfriesshire, first to Cumbria and later to the market town of Alnwick in Northumbria. Why? Could that have been for reasons of safety? After the death of his wife Mary (nee Browne), in Alnwick, he appears to have returned to Scotland where he died.

His daughter Anne Grier married Thomas Turner from Northumbria, seemingly a Quaker family who removed to Northern Ireland... possibly 'to spread the good word'? Anne died in Lurgan. Her great grand-daughter Letitia married John Eastwood of Castletown in the latter part of the 18C.

Above is stated "Sir James Grier, of Capenoch, Dumfriesshire and Rock Hall, Alnwick, Northumberland" in a research note - elsewhere James Grier is said to be of Rock in Cumbria.

Might the reference to James Grier being of 'Rock Hall' be the Rock Hall in Dumfriesshire that was in the possession of James Grier's father, Sir William Grierson (inherited and through an earlier marriage to the Kirkpatricks).

From another research note on this site, - "Rockhall is another with Grierson Clan associations. It was originally the possession of the Kirkpatricks of Closeburn, but through a marriage union with Isabel Kirkpatrick came into the possession of a nobleman Gilbert Grierson in 1412. It was described as a mansion house before 1500 and in Lag Charter no. 171, dated 1st May, 1610 - the charter by Sir William Greirsoun of Lag, in consideration of the "luiff and affection quhik of dewtie, I beir to my lovit spouse, Dame Nicolace Maxwell, and calling to remembrance the cair and trubel taen be hir upoun my directioun in the edifeing and bigging of the place of Rockell laitlie constructit be me and in all utheris my honorabill affairis, according to the dewtie of ane loveing wyiff," granting the said Dame Nicolas the mansion and mains of Rockell in liferent. At Rockell. Witnesses: Gilbert Greirsoun, called of Dalskairth, Gilbert Greirsoun, named of Bardannoch, John Greirsoun, younger, in Wodheid, Gilbert Greirsoun, tailor, servant to the said Sir William, & Herbert Cunynghame, notary. It was the main residence of the Baronets of Lag and Rockhall.... Nowadays the mansion is the possession of (Baron) Brian Gregory Hamilton. It is located 6 miles east of Dumfries."

Where is the evidence that James Grierson was knighted? As a younger son it is not likely that he was able to acquire an hereditary knighthood from his father.

So, here is where the Greer of America has been UNLINKED James Greer born circa 1627.. So IF our James Greer is not the son of James Grier/Mary Ann Browne, PLEASE let us FIND HIS parents, DNA or PAPERTRAIL.. I don't care but let us give us the grampa/gramma..

Alan, if you are watching this, ref your comment about the Burke entry on the Grierson line. All that In Burke is an almost exact copy of the discredited "Carrickfergus" tree, dating from the 1880s, and instigated by Thomas Greer of Seapark. So it was the Irish Greers, not the Scots Griersons that were the cause of so much misinformation.

Misty, furthermore, I have now found Ron's YDNA result, and sadly have to tell him that there is no chance he is descended from James Grier, given that he has no match of any sort to any Grierson, Grier or Greer that has been tested. Either a great number of those people are quite wrong in their family history, or he is. I know which way I lean.

That's my point, Misty. If James of Capenoch (NOT of Lag) is his direct ancestor in an unbroken male line (which is extremely doubtful given Ron's surname and many other points of error) then we would have a Lag YDNA - at the moment a missing element in the search for the next Baron. But as there are many millions of M269 carriers, that guess by FTDNA is of no use to anybody. My guess is that I am related to, but not descended from, James of Capenoch. But until we have certainty I wont be suggesting that my DNA is a guide.

David, it shows up on this profile because Ron has him as a direct ancestor. His dna will show up on all his family direct line's profiles. Same as anyone else who has taken any kind of DNA test and directly links. It's doesn't mean that he has actually found a dna conformation and it's unlikely only having the 67 marker test done. It's just to help other test takers to be able to compare and see if they link dna since they have the same ancestor in their tree.

I am not familiar with Ron Gragg as a DNA project member. However, it should be understood that his Haplogroup of M269 is of no use in terms of substantiating family relationships. It is an ancestral haplotype of many thousands of years ago, carried by the majority of descendants of the British Isles. Ifg Ron believes that he descends in an unbroken line of males from James of Capenoch, he should take the next generation DNA testing available in a number of companies, and establish a modern haplogroup, one that falls within the genealogical timeframe.

Unsure where all the children under this couple came from. I only have James, Henry and Ann as children. Does anyone have Sources other than Burkes(not reliable) to show other children? Trying to straighten out the Grierson trees. May have taken on more than I can chew. This surname along with Grier, and Greer have so many myths, legends, fakery mixed in with fact.

For how long must this nonsense go on? There is no valid record (ie dating from the period) anywhere that associates Greer and Lag.

I agree about the unreliability of the Burke publications. In this case two specific families are covered, Greer and Grierson.

The Greer pedigree goes back to James and Mary Greer of Rock - ie as far as the Quaker records and no further.

Burke's Peerage for Grierson refers, for example, to Roger Grierson of Lag and Rock Hall. It then mentions "James (Sir) of Capenoch, co Dumfries and of Rock Hall Northumberland', and goes on to say "He was the ancestor of the Greers of Grange, Tullylagen and of Sea Park in Ireland, and of the Griersons of Meath and Dublin and Illinois".

https://archive.org/stream/burkesgenealogic1949unse#page/892/mode/2up

I have no idea how much of this is correct, (hence the doubt) but it was a genealogy submitted to Burke by the Griersons, not the Greers.

Alan

This entry duplicates Grierson 205, although Capenoch is incorrectly spelt. I think this should be discarded.