Gwenllian ferch Ithel (abt. 1290)

Born about 1290 in Tegeingl, Flintshire, Wales

Ancestors

Descendants

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Biography

Gwenllian, daughter of Ithel Fychan,

She married Madog ap Gruffudd, baron of Glyndyfrdy, who had a son, Gruffudd.^[1][2]

Gwenllian is mentioned in the text Rhandiroedd Powys, describing the division of lands in Powys. The earliest extant version of the text is dated 1493 and records: "Madoc vychan .... ac ef a briodes Gwenllian verch Ithell vychan ap Ithell gam ap Meredudd ... ac vddvnt y bv vab, nid amgen, Gruffudd or Rruddallt."^[3]

The manuscript, Llyfr Syr Thomas ap Ieuan ap Deicws (Peniarth MS 127), written about 1510, records that Gwenllian was the mother (mam) of Gruffudd o'r Rhuddallt ("mam Gruff[udd] or Ruddallt oedd wenllian v[er]ch Ithel vychan ap Ithel llwyd ap Ithel gam ap me[redud]d".^[4]

She is also shown as having married (2) Iorwerth ap Dafydd and having a son, Iorwerth, by him.^{[citation needed][5]}

Research Notes

Her father Ithel is a descendant (probably) of the following WikiTree profiles. Looking at a chart for her lineage suggested by Darrell Wolcott in his article "The Ancestry of Owain Glyndŵr", it appears that there are several generations missing in the WikiTree line:

• Ithel Fychan (born c1180) - he is attached as husband in WikiTree to Adlais ferch Richard, shown in the Research Notes (above) as possibly her mother, but by a different Ithel: Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam. Ithel Fychan (born c1180) is attached as the son of
• Ithel Llwyd (no date given)
• Ithel Gam (born before 1150)
• Meredudd ap Uchdryd (born c1090)
• Uchdryd ap Edwin (born c1040)
• Edwin "King of Tegeingl" (born c1017)
  

Note: I guessed on whether to use ap or ab with Ithel, Uchdryd, or Edwin, so ap/ab may not be used correctly. See this G2G.

Following is the line for Gwenllian from Wolcott's chart:

• Edwin of Tegeingl (1020)
• Uchdryd (1055)
• Uchdryd Cyfeiliog (1085)
• Maredudd (1120)
• Ithel Gam Hen (1155) this article has Ithel Gam Hen (1155) -> Ithel Lloyd (1190) -> Ithel Fychan (1220)
• Ithel Llwyd (1190)
• Ithel Gam (1220)
• Ithel Fychan (1260)
• Gwenllian (1290), m Madog Fychan (1290) was born about 1290.^[6]

Gwenllian's husband is thought to be a son of Madog ap Gruffudd,^[7] although many tress show her as married to the Madog who died in 1304/6, for example: "Madog ap Gruffudd, the second baron of Glyndyfrdwy, by English tenure, died 11 Nov., 1306. His wife was Gwenllian, daughter of Ithel Fychan of Helygen, lord of Mostyn, in Flintshire, son of Ithel ap Ithel Garn . . . "^[8]

Wolcott has Gwenllian m Madog Fychan (1290). In this article, he shows that Madog Fychan (1290) has a son Gruffudd born 1320. This Gruffudd could be the son of Madog and Gwenllian (as opposed to the Gruffud born c1295, who is Madog Fychan's younger brother and grandfather of Owain Glyndŵr).

The profiles that were attached to Gwenllian's were not quite right for her and have been detached.

detached as husband - Dafydd Goch, married 1274 in Burton, Denbighshire, Wales

In WikiTree, Dafydd Goch traces back to Llywelyn the Great. "Dafydd Goch ap Dafydd - His Real Ancestry" persuasively disputes that lineage, but not that "Dafydd Goch ap Dafydd ap Gruffudd ap Llewelyn ap Iorwerth" existed, married (perhaps twice) a woman named Angharad,^[9] and was the father of Gruffudd. However, there is no mention of a wife named Gwenllian,^[10] whether or not David Goch was the grandson of Dafydd ap Gruffydd, Prince of Wales.

detached as son - Iorwerth

The profile was styled (sort of) as "Iorwerth ap Dafydd" but was more likely meant to be Iorwerth ap Iorwerth. It is unclear whether the profile was intended as her husband Iorwerth or her son Iorwerth. The nickname for the profile (as of 5 July 2023) was "foel". Iorwerth foel is shown as son of Iorwerth fychan in some sources.

From the page on Gwenllian showing information compiled by Roderick Ward, two marriages, both with a son, are shown: (1) Madog ap Gruffudd Fychan, (2) Iorwerth ap Dafydd. By Madog, she was the mother of Gruffudd, who married (1) Elizabeth le Strange, (2) Lleucu ferch Deio. By Iorwerth, she was the mother of Iorwerth Fychan who married Lleucu ferch Maredudd Llwyd.^[2] (Wolcott's article "The Ancestry of Owain Glyndŵr" discusses the marriages of Gruffudd as presented in Bartrum's chart: Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 5.)

In WikiTree, it seems that the Lleucu ferch Maredudd Llwyd who married Iorwerth Fychan is represented by Lleucu ferch Llwyd (abt.1280-), but she is attached as wife of Iorwerth "foel" ap Iorwerth, which appears to be the son of Iorwerth fychan. Archaeologia Cambrensis, page 309, has the mother of Ithel fychan as "Angharad verch Madoc Lloyd ap Iorwerth foel ap Iorwerth"^[11]

A Dictionary of Welsh Biography (DWB) article on "Meredudd ap Rhys (fl. 1450-1485)..."^[12] which gave his lineage as "Meredudd ap Rhys ap Gruffudd ap Madog Llwyd [ap Gruffudd] ap Iorwerth Foel ap Iorwerth Fychan ab Iorwerth Hen … ap Rhys Sais … ap Tudur Trefor", but the WikiTree profile for that Iorwerth foel appears to be Iorwerth Foel ap Iorwerth (1250-aft.1314), married Gwladys ferch Iorwerth - who is not the same as the Iorwerth foel attached as father to Madog Lloyd ap Iorwerth (-1305).

The information collected by Ward includes two sets of possible parents for Gwenllian:

Father: Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Llwyd (citing Carr)

Mother: unnamed (Carr) or Margaret, daughter of Sir Hugh Brickill (Bartrum, for wife of this Ithel)

or

Father: Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (citing Bartrum)^[13]

Mother: Adles ferch Richard

An article by Darrell Wolcott, "The Ancestry of Owain Glyndŵr," notes that "[Gwenllian] was probably not the first wife of Madog Fychan, nor the mother of Gruffudd, [but] this Gwenllian [born c 1290] is of the right generation to have married Madog Fychan ap Madog Crupl."^[14]

The Bartrum chart for husband Madog - Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 4 - shows the lineage of "Gruffudd o'r Rhuddallt" as son of Gwenllian by Madog Fychan ap Madog Crupl ap Gruffudd ap Gruffudd Maelor. Wolcott (in this article) assigns estimated dates and skips a Gruffudd that Bartrum shows:

Gruffudd (c1300) ap Madog Fychan (c1270) ap Madog Crupl (c1230) ap Gruffudd Maelor (c1200)

Wolcott estimates the birth of Gwenllian (in the same article) to be about 1290^[15] - too young to be mother of Gruffudd (born c1300), as is her husband Madog, who Wolcott shows as Gruffudd's brother instead of his son.

father - Ithel ab Ithel, regardless of which. If the Ithel Fychan described by Carr & Wolcott, b 1260 (Wolcott). Neither suggests a death date (I may have missed one in Carr), but a decent guess would be c1320 (based on information about the nine sons Carr lists, apparently his).

sister - Ales m Robert (Roppert) ab Iorwerth of Northop (Carr)

Rotpert ap Iorwerth (ap Rhirid) "of Bodfari and Ysceifiog. He married Adles, daughter of Ithel Vychan, of Mostyn, ap Ithel Lloyd ap Ithel Gam ap Maredydd ap Uchtred ap Edwin, of Tegeingl. Her mother being Adleis [(Richard-47)], sole heiress of Richard ap Cadwaladr, lord of Ceredigion. Rotpert ap Iorwerth was living 1339, and his brother, Gwyn, in 1313. Ithel Vychan was living temp. Edward I. Rotpert (or Robert) ap Iorwerth had issue:" Ithel Vychan, Cynric, Llewelyn ap Robert.^[16]

Sources

1. ↑ J. Y. W. Lloyd, The History of the Princes, the Lords Marcher, and the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog, London, 1881, vol. 1, p. 196-7. Google Books; Internet Archive.
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1} Begat Us: Gwenllian ferch Ithel Fychan, compiled by Roderick Ward (accessed May 8, 2017)
3. ↑ Peter Bartrum (ed), “Rhandiroedd Powys” in National Library of Wales Journal, 1973, vol. 18, p. 231-7. NLW Image.
4. ↑ National Library of Wales. Llyfr Syr Thomas ap Ieuan ap Deicws, [c. 1510 - 1544]. Peniarth MS 127, p. 38, 188. NLW Catalogue; NLW Image. A transcript of the relevant pages is here.
5. ↑ See information compiled by Roderick Ward.
6. ↑ From Wolcott's lineage for her.
7. ↑ See Darrell Wolcott's article "The Ancestry of Owain Glyndŵr" (accessed May 9, 2017).
8. ↑ Thomas Allen Glenn, Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania, page 112
9. ↑ "Pen. 127, 17 cites 2 wives for Dafydd Goch: Angharad ferch Tudor ap Madog ap Iarddur ap Cynddelw born c. 1275, and Angharad ferch Heilyn ap Sir Tudor ap Ednyfed Fychan born c. 1265. These point to a birthdate near 1260 for Dafydd Goch. Pen. 177, 104 cites one wife of Gruffudd ap Dafydd Goch as Angharad ferch Hywel y pedolau, a lady born c. 1290. Again, this suggests Dafydd Goch was born c. 1260." (#Wolcott, note 2)
10. ↑ "Dafydd Goch ap Dafydd - His Real Ancestry", by Darrell Wolcott (accessed May 8, 2017)
11. ↑ Archaeologia Cambrensis. Contributor: Cambrian Archaeological Association. Publisher: W. Pickering, 1890. Original from the University of California. Digitized Dec 18, 2007
12. ↑ Dictionary of Welsh Biography, "[=en&sort=score&order=desc&rows=12&page=1 Meredudd ap Rhys (fl. 1450-1485), gentleman, cleric, and poet" by Thomas Roberts (1885-1960), accessed 2 July 2023. From that article:
    
    

    "His pedigree is traced back to Rhys Sais and Tudur Trefor, who were the ancestors of many of the gentle families in the Maelors and the Marches.... Other manuscripts connect his great-grandfather, Madog Llwyd of Plas Nanheudwy, and his father Rhys ap Gruffudd, with Plas Halchdun - Halkyn near Chirk probably. But Meredudd lived at Ruabon in Welsh Maelor, where he was the parish priest - in 1430, according to the historian of the diocese of St Asaph, though no evidence has been found that he became vicar so early in the century."
    
    

13. ↑ also traced through Ithel Gam in this article too
14. ↑ The article continues:
    

    "The c. 1295 Gruffudd whom we chart as the grandfather of Owain Glyndŵr is the man sometimes called Gruffudd o'r Rhuddallt. We would make him a younger brother of Madog Fychan (Bartrum incorrectly charts him as thge son of Madog Fychan, confusing him with the c. 1320 Gruffudd who is sometimes called Gruffudd Llwyd. [12] Gruffudd of Rhuddallt is cited as marrying Elisabeth, daughter of John LeStrange of Knockin. Bartrum assigns that lady a birthdate of c. 1300; we suggest her gather was John LeStrange IV born 1282 and estimate her birthdate as 1310. Whether born nearer 1300, or as late as 1310, Elisabeth LeStrange fits chronologically as the wife of the c. 1295 Gruffudd and not the c. 1320 Gruffuydd." . . . and there's more: discussion of Bartrum's 2nd wife (after LeStrange), Lleuci ferch Deio ap Madog Llwyd ap Gruffudd ap Iorwerth Foel

15. ↑ A previous footnote shows the lineage Wolcott gives for her.
16. ↑ Thomas Allen Glenn, Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania, page 93

• Carr, A.D. Lineage, Power, and Land in Medieval Flintshire in Flintshire Historical Society Journal Vol. 36 (2003), pp. 59-81.
• The Bartrum Project (digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum)
  • Edwin 12, Edwin 14 (Gwenllian's ancestry)
  • Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 4 (Madog Fychan's ancestry)
  • Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 5 (Gruffudd ap Madog)
  • Sandde Hardd 4 (Iorwerth ap Dafydd of Burton, living 1315)
  • Sandde Hardd 3, Sandde Hardd 1 (ancestry of Iorwerth ap Dafydd)

From Roderick Ward's compiled research for Gwenllian:

• Carr (2003, p. 61)
• Bartrum: Edwin 14, Sandde Hardd 4, Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 4
• See more in Ward's reference list for Gwenllian.

Lineage abstracted from Carr:

Edwin
-> Uchdryd (a figure of some consequence in late 11th, early 12th centuries)
--> Ithel Fychan
[the line goes down to]
--x-> Ithel Llwyd (in the late 13th century)
--x--> brothers Ithel Fychan* and Bleddyn
. *Ithel Fychan was of age and some worth in 1292-3: "In the 1292-3 Flintshire lay subsidy he paid . . . in Halkyn and . . . neighboring townships" (the taxes paid indicating his "moveable goods (mainly livestock and crops)" were worth over 21 pounds, which Carr describes as "not inconsiderable wealth"). He "did fealty to the new prince of Wales, Edward of Caernarfon, in 1301."

--x---> Bleddyn's sons Ithel Anwyl, Bleddyn Fychan, Dafydd (Bishop of St Asaph from 1314-1346)

--x---> Ithel Fychan's nine sons (wife's name not known) Ithel Anwyl?? (see note below)

• Ithel, known as Ithel Person (a cleric) Carr notes amt paid in subsidy in 1326, died 1341, leaving issue (a son Dafydd is mentioned)
• Cynwrig Sais Carr notes he paid subsidy in 1331, a daughter Alice is mentioned and wife Margery; possibly sons Ithel and Dafydd (living 1349)
• Tudor "appeared for the first time [in land records] in 1316" (living 1349) - living 1352[1] (two sons, Dafydd and Hywel) - living 1366 ("appeared in a deed")
• Dafydd, "first appearance in 1330 as witnesses", rector of Cilcain in 1345 (two sons, Bleddyn & Dafydd, known as Dafydd Whitmore) (living 1349) - living 1352[1] - living 1366 ("appeared in a deed"), "dead by 1368"
• Bleddyn "appeared for the first time [in land records] in 1316" Carr notes he paid subsidy in 1331 (living 1349) - living 1352[1] - living 1366 ("appeared in a deed")
• Llywelyn "appeared as a party in 1336", rector of Whitford (living 1349)
• Hywel (maybe living 1349) - "earliest reference...is in 1331 and the last in 1348"
• Ieuan, "first appearance in 1330 as witnesses" (maybe living 1349)
• Maredudd (maybe living 1349)

"the brothers" signed a quitclaim in February 1349 - Cynwrig Sais for sure and brothers previously mentioned were Tudor, Dafydd, Bleddy, & Llywelyn, which is why the other three have "(maybe living 1349)" . . . sigh. then Carr says "Cynwrig probably died in 1348".

[1] Not clear the three uncles being referred to are these three brothers: "along with three of his uncles, Dafydd, Bleddynn and Tudor ab Ithel Fychan"

After the list of nine brothers, Carr notes "some confusion in the pedigrees about his daughters since his father's brother was also known as Ithel Fychan" ... but if the nine sons were Ithel Fychan ap Ithel Llwyd's, this statement makes no sense. Ithel Anwyl's "father's brother" was Ithel Fychan, but the intervening text (talking of Ithel Fychan's worth & his 1301 fealty to Edward) also mentions "his nephew Ithel ap Bleddyn (Ithel Anwyl)", so we're back to the man who has confusion about his daughters being Ithel Fychan, son of Ithel Llwyd and nephew to Ithel Fychan ("his father's brother was also known as Ithel Fychan").

--x--?-> daughters of Ithel Fychan ap ? or Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Llwyd

• Ales, married Roppert ab Iorwerth of Northop (this profile? - b1340 seems too late)
• Gwenllian, married Madog ap Gruffydd Fychan, Lord of Glyndyfrdwy

Carr does not mention a second marriage here for Gwenllian

p 74: "Owain [Glyn Dŵr] was a descendant of Ithel Fychan, his great-grandmother having been Ithel's daughter, Gwenllian."

The Wikipedia article on Owain Glyndŵr (1359–c1415) says "Glyndŵr was born around 1349 (possibly 1359) to a prosperous landed family. . ." And there is also an article on Gruffudd Fychan II:

"It has been thought that he was the son of Madog Crypl who died in 1304.[sic - 1306?] However, for him to inherit the succession and hold it until 1369 seems unlikely. Other tables suggest his father was Gruffudd ap Madog Fychan, a son of Madog Fychan.[citation needed]

"Most probably, he was the grandson of Madog Crypl, whose son Gruffudd was aged about six at his father's death, but already married. Gruffudd was still alive in 1343."

That last implies that Owain was the grandson of Gruffudd ap Madog Crypl, not the Madog who married Gwenllian.