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Caradog ap Iestyn (1105)

Caradog "Cradock, Kriadog" ap Iestyn
Born in Afan, Glamorganshire, Walesmap
Ancestors ancestors
Husband of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died [date unknown] [location unknown]
Profile last modified | Created 20 Apr 2015
This page has been accessed 844 times.
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The Birth Date is a rough estimate. See the text for details.

Contents

Biography

Caradog was the son of Iestyn ap Gwrgan, arglwydd of Morgannwg. He was "of, Afan cantref, Glamorganshire, Wales." The name of his mother is disputed. She could be Denis ferch Bleddyn or Constance "Wen" ferch Cadwgon.[1]

Caradog married Gwladus ferch Gruffudd, the daughter of Gruffudd ap Rhys, Brenin of Cantref Mawr, and his wife Gwenllian [2nd] ferch Gruffudd. There are at least 10 known children, all except Cadwallon and Maredudd were "of Afan cantref, Glamorganshire, Wales":[1]

  • Cadwallon ap Caradog, b. Abt 1130, of, Glynrhondda commote, Glamorganshire, Wales; had issue
  • Morgan ap Caradog, arglwydd of Afan, b. Abt 1130, d. Abt 1208 (Age ~ 78 years); m. Gwenllian ferch Ifor "Bach"
  • Maredudd ap Caradog, b. Abt 1130, of, Meisgyn commote, Glamorganshire, Wales, d. 1211 (Age ~ 81 years); m. Joan Turberville
  • Madog ap Caradog, b. Abt 1130; had issue
  • Dafydd ap Caradog, b. Abt 1120; had issue
  • Meurig ap Caradog, b. Abt 1130; had issue
  • Unknown ferch Caradog, b. Abt 1130; m. Cadrod ab Einion, arglwydd of Breichiau Morgannwg
  • Margred ferch Caradog, b. Abt 1130; m. William de Londres
  • Owain ap Caradog, b. Abt 1170, d. Bef 1173 (Age ~ 3 years)
  • Peredur ap Caradog, b. Abt 1170; hadd issue

Father: Iestyn ap Gwrgan(t) [2]

Combined tree from Cynfrig ap Howel, Lord Llantrithyd & Radyr, Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors & Cousins[3] and Merion in the Welsh Tract[4]

  1. Gyrgant, Prince of Glamorgan d.1030 m. Angharat verch Gwyn
    1. Jestyn ap Gwrgant, Lord Glamorgan m. Angarad vh Elystan Gloddryd
      1. Caradog, Lord of Avan or Aberaven
      2. Madoc of Ruthyn {Rhuthun rhudd' (red) and 'din' (fort)} m. Jenet verch Sytsylt
        1. Howel ap Madoc m. Mawd ferch Gruffudd
          1. Cynfrig ap Hywel, Lord Llantrithyd & Radyr
          2. Jevan
          3. Joan
      3. Rhys (Rhydd)
      4. Nest m. Einion ap Collwyn[5]

Notes

The winning of Glamorgan: Documents [6]

"To Caradoc the Eldest Son by his 3d* wife of Iestyn he gave the Lordship of Avan, that is the Lands between Neath and Avan, to hold in Right Royal, of the fœderate Power and not of the Lord Sole in Homage. This Caradoc had his Castle in [the] Town of Aberavan which he corporated a Burgher Town, as it remains to this day."
  • 2nd
"After the winning of the Country by Sir Robert Fitzhamon, he took to him his twelve knights to supply the places in his Courts of the Lawful and right Lords of the twelve Lordships, which caused discontent insomuch that the Welsh lords took arm under Pain Turberville and Caradoc ab Iestyn and Madoc his Brother, and they came to Cardiff Castle and surrounded it insomuch that it was on the point of being taken when King Henry the first going to the top of the Raven Tower, (fn. 47) to enquire concerning the tumult which was heard, he saw the place all encompassed by fierce armed men."
"This noble Pain had paid to Caradoc, which gave offence to Sir Robert and the other knightes. But after they had taken Pain all his men and the men of Caradoc took arms and beset the Castle of Cardiff, whereupon Sir Robert was compelled to let go Pain Turbill and to give him free of the Noble a year."
"Caradoc, eldest son of Iestyn ap Gwrgan by his second wife Angharad verch Elysdan Glodrydd, Earl of Ferlex or Hereford, and her mother who was Gwladys verch Rhun ap Edwyn ap Hywel Dda, Prince of South Wales 41 years, and of Powys 39, and of North Wales 8 years. His genealogy is here more fully recited than in the former account."
"The Evans of gnoll near Neath, Price of Briton ferry, williamses of Blaen Baglan, aberpergwm &; Ty'n y Bettws, Thomases of Brigam Loughor from Skerr, (fn. 72) &; Tithegston and the Thomases of Llanvihangel, Pwll y wrach, (fn. 73) &; llwyn y waun, are all descended from this Caradog ab Iestyn, which Caradog had given him by sir Robert, the Lordship of Avan to his part, and his chief place was the Town & Castle of Aberavan, and another Castle in the said Lordship which was destroyed by the South Wales Welsh. [Underlined by the copyist, probably because an addition to the original.]"
"Some say that it was of the Lordship of Morgan or Margam, which then consisted of the Country from Cremlyn to Ogwyr and was the largest of all the Lordships, which Caradoc had with a deed securing to him the Principality of Glam. after his (Iestin's) death. This Lordship with that of Caerlleon &; Silly (fn. 85) were three which the Prince of Glam. had in his hands to bestow on his 2 eldest sons & wife."

Aberavon (Aber-Avon) [7]

"This place, which derives its name from its situation at the mouth of the river Avon, is of considerable antiquity, and was formerly invested with various privileges. In the division of the county, on its subjugation by Fitz-Hamon, the Norman adventurer, Aberavon formed part of the territories conferred by that chieftain upon Caradoc, son of Iestyn ab Gwrgan the dethroned prince, who made it the place of his residence, and is supposed to have erected the ancient castle, the foundations of which are still discernible in a field adjoining the churchyard."

Penrice, or Pen-Rhŷs [8]

"This place is thought to have derived its name, signifying "the head of Rhŷs," from the circumstance of Rhŷs ab Caradoc ab Iestyn having been defeated and slain here, in defending his territories from the aggression of a party of Norman invaders."

Swansea [9]

"The castle of Swansea, or Abertawe, according to Caradoc of Llancarvan, was built in the year 1099, by Henry Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, with a view to secure possession of those lands, in the province of Gower, which he had wrested by force of arms from the sons of Caradoc ab Iestyn; and on the completion of the fortress, the town is said to have been built by the same nobleman."

Glamorganshire [10]

"The district of Gower was wrested from the sons of Caradoc ab Iestyn, about the end of the eleventh century, by Henry Beaumont, Earl of Warwick, who established in it a colony of English and Flemish settlers, whose descendants yet remain there, distinguished by their language and manners from the more ancient native population."

Neath (Castell Nedd) [11]

"Soon after the accession of Stephen, Grufydd ab Rhŷs, having laid waste the Norman possessions in Cardiganshire, advanced into the territory of Glamorgan; and the Norman lords, rallying their forces in the neighbourhood of this town, are said to have been attacked here by the Welsh army, led on by the sons of Caradoc ab Iestyn, who were lords of the district between the rivers Tawe and Avon. A sanguinary conflict is said to have ensued, in which 3000 men are supposed to have fallen by the sword; the Normans were completely routed, and the few that survived the battle were compelled to seek an asylum in the castles of Gower."

Research Notes

Pronouncing Iestyn: "jɛstɪn".[12]

Removed Nest ferch Gruufydd as wife of Caradog and mother of his children.Watt-266 17:10, 20 April 2015 (EDT). Doubt he has the correct spouse on Wikitree Bairfield-1 13:58, 15 June 2014 (EDT)

Upon saving, 25 April 2020, received the following automated warning:

Warning: Check the data.
  • A child's birth date (Avene-1 born 1055) should not be before a parent is six years old (Ab Iestyn-1 born 1056).

And on 1 July 2023:

Warning: Check the data.
  • A mother's birth date (Ferch Elystan-1 born 1030) should not be more than 67 years before the birth date of one of her children (Ap Iestyn-4 born 1105).

Estimated Birth: Profile text said he was born about 1030, but the list for his children had their birth years c1130. The birth year in the datafield was changed to 1105 (see comments on this profile and on his father's profile). This caused a ripple effect:

Warning: Check the data.
  • A child's birth date (Avene-1 born 1055) should not be before a parent is six years old (Ab Iestyn-1 born 1105) .
  • A mother's birth date (Elystan-2 born 1030) should not be more than 67 years before the birth date of one of her children (Ab Iestyn-1 born 1105) .
  • A father's death date (Ap Gwrgan-4 died 1095) should not be more than nine months before one of his children's birth dates (Ab Iestyn-1 born 1105) .
  • A birth date (Ab Iestyn-1 born 1105) should not be more than 60 years before or after a sibling's birth date (Ferch Iestyn-2 born 1040) .
Caution: Unusual information. Is the following correct?
  • A birth date (Ab Iestyn-1 born 1105) is more than 40 years before or after a sibling's birth date (Ferch Iestyn-2 born 1040) .
  • It's unusual for a mother's birth date (Elystan-2 born 1030) to be more than 55 years before the birth date of one of her children (Ab Iestyn-1 born 1105) .

Sources

  1. 1.0 1.1 FamilySearch Welshdatabase, but database was reorganized and broke the link.
  2. Dwnn, p. 265
  3. Marlyn Lewis's database (info from the database should be checked against cited sources).
  4. Glenn's book is a much more reliable source.
  5. Glenn, pp. 158-159
  6. "The winning of Glamorgan: Documents," in Cardiff Records: Volume 4, ed. John Hobson Matthews (Cardiff: Cardiff Records Committee, 1903), 6-47. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [1].
  7. Samuel Lewis. "Abbey - Aberfraw," in A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, (London: S Lewis, 1849), 1-12. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [2].
  8. Samuel Lewis. "Penmark - Pentir," in A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, (London: S Lewis, 1849), 308-318. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [3].
  9. Samuel Lewis. "Steynton - Swydd," in A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, (London: S Lewis, 1849), 374-384. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [4].
  10. Samuel Lewis. "Gelly - Glyn," in A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, (London: S Lewis, 1849), 358-385. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [5].
  11. Samuel Lewis. "Nangle - Newborough," in A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, (London: S Lewis, 1849), 242-255. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017, [6].
  12. https://www.howtopronounce.com/iestyn




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Comments: 16

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Please change the LNAB to ap Iestyn. The forenames where the initial I is pronounced as a Y take the patronymic ap, whereas those like Ifor take the patronymic ab

Many thanks, Steve, on behalf of the Wales project

posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Steve Bartlett
detached Margaret (Avene) de Londres (abt.1055-) - born too early for Caradog to be her father.
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
This mess has been sitting there uncorrected about 6 years. He is 53 years older than his wife, and about the same age as his daughter ????
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by R. D. Flowers
estimating dates of the early Welsh is problematic and we obviously haven't figured them out yet for him (text has a different birth year, which resolves the issues you point out, but create other problems... and birth years for his children in the text are 100 years after his).

if you have additional sources that would help, please share!

posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Personally I would rather that contradictory dates and such should be removed or present only in biography with appropriate caveats than to have obviously wrong facts presented in key profile facts.

I can't do much with this, since I'm not pre-1500 certified.

All the contradictory facts cannot be well attested. Since I cannot (because not pre-1500 certified), could someone not put approximate and self consistent dates, with uncertainty markers, and a SIMPLE explanation in Research Notes and/or biography ?? I so much value WT's relative lack of absurdities (compared to other sites).

posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by R. D. Flowers
edited by R. D. Flowers
you can't have a profile without a date
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
upon saving, received the following automated message:
Warning: Check the data.
  • A child's birth date (Avene-1 born 1055) should not be before a parent is six years old (Ab_Iestyn-1 born 1056).
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
The William de Londres who married Margred ferch Caradog was probably the one born about 1137, son of Simon and Sybilla, for chronology reasons.
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Michael Meggison
Do you have any reliable sources to share for the dates for her or William?

I haven't been able to find what FamilySearch did with the info for him that used to be in the FamilySearch Welsh database (links with "histfam" in the URL no longer work). The FS Welsh database is the footnoted citation for his family in the text, which says that his daughter Margaret who married Londres was born c1130. However, the profile attached for her has her birth year before Caradog's (1055 & 1056, respectively).

One of the problems with this timeframe for Welsh profiles is that sources tend to not include dates & trying to estimate dates for profiles of ancestors/descendants either results in or discovers significant discrepancies.

One of the best overviews about estimating dates for this period/location is Darrell Wolcott's "Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws" - http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id22.html

posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
ooh - I could've sworn I'd searched ancientwalesstudies before, but just did and got the following results that may help. Although none mention Margred m Londres, they do conclude that Caradog was born c1105, which fits with Margred's husband being born c1137. And "The Conquest of Glamorgan - Further Notes" lists William de Londres as one of four knights who accompanied fitz Hamo (fitz Hamo was succeeded in 1120): "William de Londres, who was granted 4 knight's fees in the west end of the Vale on lands later included in the English hundred of Ogmore. [13]"

http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id229.html - "Was Iestyn ap Gwrgan the Founder of One of the 5 Royal Tribes"

That Caradog ap Iestyn married Gwladys ferch Gruffudd ap Rhys, [10] a sister of Lord Rhys born c. 1120. Thus, Caradog was likely born near 1105. His son, Morgan, married Gwenllian ferch Ifor Bach. [11] This lady was born c. 1145 and a birthdate near 1135 would fit their (Caradog and Gwladys) son, Morgan. Accordingly, the Iestyn ap Gwrgan who fathered Caradog, Lord of Afan, was born c. 1075 and could not be the first man of that name in this family. [12] In fact, one wife cited for an Iestyn ap Gwrgan was Dyddgu ferch Iorwerth ap Cadwgan ap Elystan Glodrydd, a lady born about 1085. [13] Therefore, we believe the "kingly family" of Morgannwg looks like this: ...

http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id94.html - "Pedigree of Cynddelw Gam of Ystrad Alun"

209. Gruffudd ap Gwilym ap Ithel, born c. 1345
He married a daughter (c. 1360) ferch Ieuan (c. 1330) ap Dafydd (c. 1295) ap Gwrgeneu Fychan (c. 1265) ap Gwrgeneu (c. 1235) ap Iorwerth (c. 1195) ap Lleision (c. 1165) ap Morgan (c. 1135) ap Caradog (c. 1105) ap Iestyn (c. 1075) ap Gwrgan (c. 1042) ap Ithel Ddu (c. 1012), of Glamorgan. They had a son and a daughter: ...
Pen. 134, 147 cites "Gruffudd ap Gwilym ap Ithel" married "a daughter of Ieuan ap Dafydd" while Harl 1969, 190 extends her ancestry to "Ieuan ap Dafydd ap Gwrgheneu Fychan" and Pen 128, 681b extends it as "Dafydd ap Gwrgeneu Fycha ap Gwrgeneu ap Iorwerth ap Lleision ap Morgan". ABT 15 makes Morgan the son of Caradog ap Iestyn ap Gwrgan, but Caradog clearly was born c. 1100/05 while Iestyn ap Gwrgan was born 2 generations earlier near 1040. The 1175 Brut entry mentions this Morgan's mother as a sister of Lord Rhys, so Morgan was born no eaelier than 1135. Our construction of the Glamorgan pedigrees requires both an Iestyn ap Gwrgan ap Ithel and an Iestyn ap Gwrgan ap Ithel Ddu ap Ithel to achieve a stable timeline for the family.
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Liz thank you for the work you are doing on this profile. And you did a lot of work in the post to which I am replying, and I don't see any responses. It looks like you are citing sources that conclude Caradog was born c1105. While I agree this helps fit chronologically with Margred, it calls into question the dating of his parents' birthdates (c1030, which could work for Iestyn, but would make his mother Angharad 75 when Caradog was born), and also Iestyn's death date of 1095, which is before 1105.

That said, I'm much less concerned with all the date estimating, and really only care that the relationships shown here are based on sources deemed reliable, and suggest using those to do some disconnecting here, or some "uncertain" flagging while the work progresses?

posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Kevin Walters
Kevin - thank you for your kind words. I received a private reply to that post (from a leader of the Wales Project), letting me know that the sources I cited were not considered reliable. Since the Wales Project was/is a co-manager of this profile, I did not pursue changes based on my post.

I do think that Darrell Wolcott's reasoning is sound (the articles cited from ancientwalesstudies are by him), and they conclude that Caradog was born c1105.

However, this conflicts with the birth year of 1056 - apparently considered to be based on a reliable source, which appears to be Samuel Lewis. "Gelly - Glyn," in A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, (London: S Lewis, 1849), 358-385. British History Online, accessed May 12, 2017 (the change explanation for when the birth year was changed from 1076 to 1056 was that he had "fighting age sons in 1099, who must themselves be born in the 1070s" - which, considering 14 was fighting age, would make 1056 a reasonable birth year).

Perhaps Wales Project could take another look. In trying to refresh my mind as to what "Pen." stood for, I found the answer at ancientwalesstudies: Pen. = Peniarth Ms described by the number assigned by its holder) and this G2G post: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1129577/brut-y-tywysogion-a-correction-of-an-earlier-g2g?show=1129577#q1129577 (which predates my Dec 2020 post, so perhaps the "not reliable" verdict will stand, but a re-look would be nice).

Cheers, Liz

P.S. I think that date estimating is essential in order to determine whether or not profiles are attached correctly. Wolcott's articles make that fairly clear, since date estimates can show when a generation may have been skipped - and with repeated naming patterns, it seems to have happened fairly often. See https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/668156/welsh-pedigrees-and-their-date-issues for example.

posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
K M
You are absolutely correct. The William de Londres who was born circa 1137 was the one who married Margred (or Marared or Margaret) ferch Caradog (born c. 1142), daughter of Caradog ap Iestyn (b. 1105) and Gwladus ferch Gruffydd (born c. 1122). That is because of how the chronology works out for that marriage as found in Peter Bartrum's genealogical tables!
posted by K M
Iestyn-2 and Ab Iestyn-1 appear to represent the same person because: these profiles represent the same person and should be merged. Vic's comment on Iestyn-2 says LNAB should be ab Iestyn. Please merge. Thanks!
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
The "FamilySearch Welshdatabase" says he was born about 1030, and that his children were born between 1120 (when he's 90) and 1170 (when he's 140)? Doesn't sound like a reliable source.
posted on Ab Iestyn-1 (merged) by Jason Clark
Hi Katherine.

The new Cymru Naming standards say his LNAB should be changed to: ab Iestyn. Do you want to do it or should I? Vic

posted on Iestyn-2 (merged) by Vic Watt

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