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Margaret (Seton) Seton Countess of Moray (abt. 1405 - abt. 1470)

Margaret Seton Countess of Moray formerly Seton aka Dunbar Ogilvy [uncertain]
Born about in Scotlandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Daughter of [uncertain] and [uncertain]
Sister of , , and
Wife of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Wife of — married 1435 [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Mother of , , , , and
Died about at about age 65 in Forfarshire, Scotlandmap
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Profile last modified | Created 6 Mar 2015
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Margaret (Seton) Seton Countess of Moray was a historically significant person of Scotland.
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Biography

Margaret (Seton) Seton Countess of Moray is a member of Clan Seton.

Margaret Seton was a daughter of Sir Alexander Seton of Gordon. She married James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray, about 1422.[1] (see research Notes)

There were two daughters from this marriage, both named in a royal precept 26 April 1442 as daughters of James Dunbar, earl of Moray:[2]

James Dunbar, 4th earl of Moray, died 10 August 1429.[6] [7] After his death Margaret, Countess of Moray ,received the fermes of Aberdeen in 1431.[8]

On 26 Jan 1432 Alexander Stewart earl of Mar and Margaret Seton, nobles, in the Aberdeen and Moray dioceses submitted a Supplication to the Pope in Rome that they wished to enter a contract of marriage but that they could not do so without dispensation of the Apostolic See. Impediments were that the late James Dunbar former husband to Margaret was related to Alexander Stewart in the second and third degree of consanguinity and that Margaret and Alexander were related in the third and fourth degrees.[9] At this time Alexander was apparently still married to his second wife, Marie van Hoerne, whom he had married in 1411 in Brabant but had been long separated from. In a writ of 1432 it was said that "Marie's husband the Earl of Mar has not for a long time past been in Brabant, and is no more in a position to go there." It remains doubtful that the proposed marriage of the Earl of Mar and Countess of Moray took place. It would in any case be short as Alexander died in 1435, upon which leaving no lawful issue the Crown seized and annexed the earldom.[10]

Margaret, Countess of Moray married (second) Sir John Ogilvy of Lintrathen about 1435.[11] That Margaret's aunt Marion Seton was spouse to John Ogilvy of Inverquharity, uncle to Sir John of Lintrathen suggests the parties were familiars.

Margaret receive the terce of the lands of the Earldom of Moray in Elgin, Forres, and elsewhere, the payments at times being recorded as made to Sir John Ogilvy. [12]

Instrument of Sasine in favour of Margaret Ogilvy, Countess of Murray, wife of Sir John Ogilvy of Lintrathen, Knight, was granted of a Provision in her favour. Sasine was given by James Ogilvy, Brother German of the said John at Lintrathen, near the Church, at the House or toft belonging to the Chaplainry of St Medan. The symbols of delivery were the giving of earth and stone, and the shutting of the Lady into the said house, all others being first put out, 18th July 1447. [13]

Margaret was mother to Sir John's children.[14]

  • James his heir
  • Thomas, Chanter of Dunkeld afterwards Abbot of Coupar Abbey[15]
  • Mariot mar. Sir Alex. Forbes of Pitsligo[16][17]
  • John granted charter of Fingask from his father in 1472 [18]
  • Elizabeth mar. Sir Patrick Keith of Inverugie
  • Marjory mar. Henry Stewart of Rosyth [19]
  • David pensioner of Wardroperston [20]


King James II grated a charter to Sir John of Ogilvy of Luntrethin and Margaret Countess of Moray, his Wife, of the lands of Garlat on 24th July 1448.[21]


As Countess of Moray she received the grain fermes of Moray up to 1469[22] She continued to receive the fermes of Moray up to the end of her life. She died about June 1470 at five terms before 1473. [23]

Research Notes

Margaret's name and parentage:
  • Both The Scots Peerage and Cokayne identify James Dunbar's wife as a daughter of Alexander Seton of Gordon.[6][24] However, they name her as either "Janet" or "Katherine," giving no explanation or evidence for either of those names. Richardson names her as Margaret Seton referencing a 1432 dispensation of marriage for Margaret Seton, widow of James Dunbar, and Alexander Stewart, Earl of Mar.[25] He also refers to a charter of 5 June 1447 which supports Margaret subsequently marrying John Ogilvy-8.[1]

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. Salt Lake City: the author (2013), vol. 1, p.632 BRUS 10.vi.a.2) James Dunbar.
  2. ↑ Antiq. Aberdeen, etc. iii. 231, as cited in Paul, Sir James Balfour. The Scot's Peerage. Edinburgh: D. Douglas (1904), vol. 6, p. 306 and fn#1.
  3. ↑ 3.0 3.1 Cokayne, George Edward. The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant... London: St Catherine Press (1936), vol. 9, p. 177, fn(b).
  4. ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 Paul, Sir James Balfour. The Scot's Peerage. Edinburgh: D. Douglas (1904), vol. 6, p. 306.
  5. ↑ Rotuli scaccarii regum Scotorum = The Exchequer rolls of Scotland Vol.6 p.cxxxix
  6. ↑ 6.0 6.1 Paul, Sir James Balfour. The Scot's Peerage. Edinburgh: D. Douglas (1904), vol. 6, p. 305.
  7. ↑ Paul, Sir James Dunbar (ed). Registrum Magni Sigilli Regum Scotorum. Edinburgh: General Register house (1882), vol. 2, p. 39 #179
  8. ↑ Rotuli scaccarii regum Scotorum = The Exchequer rolls of Scotland Vol.4 p.550
  9. ↑ Scottish History Society publicationsVolume 7 - Calendar of Scottish supplications to Rome, 1428-1432 pp.209-210
  10. ↑ "The Scots Peerage : Founded On Wood's Ed. Of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage Of Scotland; Containing An Historical And Genealogical Account Of The Nobility Of That Kingdom : Paul, James Balfour, Sir, 1846-1931 : Free Download, Borrow, And Streaming : Internet Archive". 2022. Internet Archive. Ancient Earls of Mar Vol.v p.588 589
  11. ↑ "The Scots Peerage : Founded On Wood's Ed. Of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage Of Scotland; Containing An Historical And Genealogical Account Of The Nobility Of That Kingdom : Paul, James Balfour, Sir, 1846-1931 : Free Download, Borrow, And Streaming : Internet Archive". 2022. Internet Archive. Sir John Ogilvy, Vol VI, p.113-4
  12. ↑ Rotuli scaccarii regum Scotorum = The Exchequer rolls of Scotland Vol.6 p.219
  13. ↑ National records of Scotland GD16/1/3
  14. ↑ "The Scots Peerage : Founded On Wood's Ed. Of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage Of Scotland; Containing An Historical And Genealogical Account Of The Nobility Of That Kingdom : Paul, James Balfour, Sir, 1846-1931 : Free Download, Borrow, And Streaming : Internet Archive". 2022. Internet Archive. Sir John Ogilvy, Vol VI, p.113-4
  15. ↑ Nisbet, A system of heraldry, speculative and practical, with the true art of blazon, according to the most approved heralds in Europe: illustrated with suitable examples of armoria figures, and achievements of the most considerable surnames and families in Scotland, together with historical and genealogical memorials relative thereto Vol.i p295
  16. ↑ Lumsden; Genealogy of the family of Forbes p.27
  17. ↑ Illustrations of the Topography and Antiquities of the Shires of Aberdeen and Banff Vol.iii p.404
  18. ↑ Registrum magni sigilli regum Scotorum Vol ii Charter 1084
  19. ↑ Registrum magni sigilli regum Scotorum Vol ii Charter 2053
  20. ↑ National Records of Scotland ref GD16/3/143
  21. ↑ History of the Carnegies, Earls of Southesk, and of their kindred Page 518 Charter 69
  22. ↑ Rotuli scaccarii regum Scotorum Vol.7 p.640
  23. ↑ Rotuli scaccarii regum Scotorum Exchr Rolls Vol.8 p.84
  24. ↑ Cokayne, George Edward. The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant... London: St Catherine Press (1936), vol. 9, p. 177.
  25. ↑ Scottish History Society publicationsVolume 7 - Calendar of Scottish supplications to Rome, 1428-1432 pp.209-210

See also:





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Comments: 10

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Stevens-17832 Jen (Stevens) Hutton
Seton-415 and Seton-234 appear to represent the same person because: Jack, Scotland Project has been trying to straighten out some tangles in the Dunbar line. These two profiles represent the same woman. If you complete the merge, please ensure we don't lose any research from either of the profiles so both her marriages remain documented. If you would rather I complete it, just let me know. You will remain a pm on Margaret's final profile in either case. (Jen)
posted by Jen (Stevens) Hutton
Jack Blair
Agreed these represent the same person. Apologies Jen for the duplication. I am happy for you to go ahead and merge these keeping all the research references.
posted by Jack Blair
Stevens-17832 Jen (Stevens) Hutton
No problem! I have completed the merge and attempted to blend the bios, but if you would like to do any further editing please feel free to have at it! In particular, do you mind checking the children from her marriage to Ogilvy and making sure there is a source for each one of them? And linking them to their profiles if they are already on WT? Thank you for all the great research you have already done on Margaret.

Jen

posted by Jen (Stevens) Hutton
Jack Blair
Thanks Jen, happy with your merging. Have added sources to the children of this marriage.

Jack

posted by Jack Blair
Thiessen-117 Traci Thiessen
Do you have a source for her parents?
posted on Seton-415 (merged) by Traci Thiessen
Jack Blair
You

Yes. See MacFarlane's Genealogical Collections Vol. ii p.521. James Dunbar of Frendraught succeeded his uncle Thomas Dunbar to the title Earl of Moray, He " married a Daughter of Alexander Seaton of Gordon. ............He died about the Feast of St Laurence in the year 1430 "

See https://archive.org/details/genealogicalcoll02macf/page/520/mode/2up

posted on Seton-415 (merged) by Jack Blair
edited by Jack Blair
Atkinson-107 John Atkinson
I think there are two, maybe even three, different women amalgamated in this profile.

The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., vol. 9, p. 177, states that James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray, "is said to have married a daughter (variously called Katherine and Janet) of Sir Alexander Seton of Gordon" https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/421516-redirection

The Scots Peerage, vol. 6, pp. 305-06 states the same information https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun06paul/page/305/mode/1up?view=theater and there appears to be no source that gives her the name Margaret.

Then The Scots Peerage, vol. 1, pp 113 (as cited above, though the citation has vol. 6 instead of 1) in a note, states that the Margaret, Countess of Moray is more likely to be a widow of Thomas Dunbar, Earl of Moray rather than the widow of James Dunbar. There is some confusion over whether this is Thomas Dunbar, the 2nd Earl of Moray or Thomas Dunbar, 3rd Earl of Moray who both married women named Margaret. The Complete Peerage, in same volume, back on pp. 175-76 names the wife of the 3rd Earl, as Margaret Seton, daughter of Sir William Seton of Seton, or William Seton, 1st Lord Seton, and it was she who married secondly Sir John Ogilvy of Lintrathen.

Lastly the Supplication to Rome about the projected marriage of Margaret de Seton, widow of James Dunbar, to Alexander Stewart, Earl of Mar, is interesting because it doesn't name Margaret or James Dunbar as Countess/Earl of Moray, so perhaps this refers to a different Margaret Seton? Working out the cousin relationships mentioned in the Supplication might help in identifying who these people are?

Also The Complete Peerage, states that of the two daughters, Elizabeth was the younger and it was the power of the Douglas clan that seemingly meant she inherited. See again The Complete Peerage, cited above, pp. 178-179.

posted on Seton-415 (merged) by John Atkinson
edited by John Atkinson
Jack Blair
I accept that most evidence points to Elizabeth being the younger daughter of James Dunbar but if she married in or before 1442 then her birth would be at the latest around 1428 which is just feasible as James returned from England 1n 1427. Strangely her elder sister married later and indeed by law carried the arms and title of Countess of Moray which she was initially denied by the powerful Douglases. ( See similar circumstances a century earlier for my forebear Walter Moray of Drumsagart (Murray-1889 ). In that case I have now placed Jean as first child.

I do not intend changing the profile of my gt x19 grandmother. There is only one lady in this profile,

  • MacFarlane said that a daughter of Alexander Seton of Gordon married James Dunbar of Frendraught who succeeded to the earldom of Moray and died in 1430.
  • Margaret, Countess of Moray received the fermes of Aberdeen in 1431 this clearly her terce,
  • In January 1432 the intended marriage of Alexander Stewart earl of Mar to the noble Lady Margaret widow of James Dunbar was found to be obstructed due to several issues of close degrees of consanguinity between Alexander and James and also between Alexander and Margaret. Only the nobility could take up the expense of Supplication to Rome. That these were indeed nobles in the dioceses of Aberdeen and Moray there is no doubt that Margaret was the recently widowed wife of the late James earl of Moray.
  • Margaret, Countess of Moray married Sir James Ogilvy of Lintrathen and was mother to his children, She continued to receive the fermes of the earldom of Moray throughout this marriage up to her death about June 1470 (five terms before 1473).


  • She was mother to the heiresses Janet and Elizabeth both of whom at times held the title Countess of Moray during and after Margaret's tenure and also received their terce from the earldom of Moray as shown in the Exchequer Rolls.

After the death of Archibald Douglas, Elizabeth was contracted to marry George, Lord Gordon, This marriage was dissolved due to consanguinity, presumably as George was grandson of Alexander Seton and Elizabeth Gordon and Elizabeth Dunbar’s mother Margaret Countess of Moray was daughter to Alexander Seton and Elizabeth Gordon.

  • Margaret Seton was granddaughter of Adam Gordon and Elizabeth Keith daughter to Sir John Keith and Jean Stewart (Stewart-968), daughter to Robert, Earl of Strathearn, afterwards King Robert II
  • The earldom of Moray was granted to John Dunbar and Marjorie Stewart (Stewart-11419) , daughter to King Robert II, and to the longer liver of them, and their heirs, whom failing, to George Dunbar, Earl of March, and his heirs whomsoever. (RMS v.1 525)
  • George Dunbar 10th earl married Christina Seton (Seton-45) daughter of Alan Seton of that Ilk
  • Alexander Stewart earl of Mar was son to Alexander Stewart earl of Buchan, the Wolf of Badenoch (Stewart-1007) third son to King Robert II and thus brother to Jean, Lady Glamis and Marjory Stewart Countess of Moray.

Therefore all three parties mentioned in the Supplication were related closely.

Notwithstanding of all the debates in The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., vol. 9, p. 177, the Scots Peerage vol. 6, pp. 305-06 and MacFarlane Vol. 2 , I hold that there is ample evidence to support this profile of Margaret Seton. Earlier published genealogies can still be improved if correct sources are identified.

posted on Seton-415 (merged) by Jack Blair
edited by Jack Blair

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