Disputed parents of John Belgrave

Question

John Belgrave is the ancestor of several early settlers in Massachusetts.  His wikitree profile currently shows his father as Richard Belgrave with a royal lineage, but this appears to be a fabrication.  No parents are shown for John Belgrave in  "The Strutt Ancestry of Thomasine Frost, Wife of Edmund Rice of Sudbury, Mass." by Harold F. Porter, Jr., in The American Genealogist (1986), 61:163.

Unless somebody has additional information, it looks like his parents should be detached.

Comments

Though I am not happy to admit (John is in my family line), I have found the same odd link. Some sources report there is no "Richard". Others suggest John links directly to his father John. I am not saying the link to Richard should be detached, but perhaps it should be marked as "uncertain". Of course, should substantial evidence of a link to royals be found this can be changed.

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I have been researching this link and have only found family tree's supporting this relationship. I have known about the absence of mention of John's parents in Strutt's Ancestry. However, the lack of support for something does not mean it does not exist.

From my understanding of Wikitree policy de-linking the parentage might be extreme (the link might be true). For me, marking the father as "uncertain" seems like a good step.

If I am wrong in my thinking I am happy to be "schooled".

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Michael,

There may be differences of opinion about how best to apply wikitree policy on this kind of situation.

For many of us, an unsourced family tree is simply not enough to warrant keeping a connection. If there is additional evidence suggesting such a connection, then the "uncertain" tag might be appropriate.

Answer 1

Well, parents Richard and Elizabeth have been re-attached yet again.  I'm inclined to detach them yet again.  Perhaps this profile needs PPP by some project??

I fear the temptation of possible royal descent often, um, clouds judgment.

Comments

How frustrating. Is there not a clearer way to get through to people.

(have seen one profile where disputed parentage paragraph is all in bold and large font.)

Answer 2

In "our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com", John's father is listed as John, on wikitree listed as grandfather. No mention of Richard is given. However, no source for this is given.

Comments

Unfortunately, that web site offers no source citations for where its information comes from.

Answer 3

A non-family tree source for linage (maybe?) for Richard is given as

Source S-1986436509 British Chancery Records, 1386-1558. Lists of Early Chancery Proceedings. Public Record Official Lists and Indexes Volumes. Hamilton, Rosanna, comp. Online publication - Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2004. http://www.Ancestry.com

on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Belgrave-16. But I do not have access to that material. Maybe somebody who does can tell us what the source actually says.

Comments

It doesn't say anything it's just an index to cases heard in chancery. This is the only one I found on a quick search, just using the name Richard Belgrave.

Name:	Richard Belgrave
Place:	Hertford
Date:	1551-1553
Volume:	9
Page:	317
Bundle:	1289

 The number seems to refer to this document http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7499609  which doesn't look as if it's any help to you  (and as the Richard in question seems to live in Suffolk, and this one in Hertfordshire, it's probably about a different man)

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Thanks. I looked at it and it does not support parentage. For me, if I see a source citation but cannot see the actual document I don't really believe it.

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If you go back a generation, you will see that this was a family living in Leicestershire. The profile had Inquisition as a death place which was obviously wrong but lead me to a report of his IPM which I've put on the profile. It might be possible to find an abstract of the IPM elsewhere

If his son and heir George was actually only 2, then it  also needs investigation as to whether this Richard,(Belgrave-16) born in Suffolk in 1509   is correctly linked.

(but it's late now so won't chase any further)

Answer 4

I detached John Belgrave's parents almost two years ago, per the "disputed parents" paragraph.  Somebody re-attached them, and I have just detached them again, per wikitree policy: No supporting information, and two conflicting GUESSES about the parents.  ("Uncertain" parents shouldn't be attached just based on a guess, even if it is a guess that somebody posted on a website.)

As always, if further information based on primary sources comes up, this can be reviewed and changed.

Comments

Thanks, John.

Answer 5

OK, thanks for the clarification and correction. If some real evidence appears they will be re-connected.

Answer 6

Geni. com has John as the son of Richard Belgrave and there is a family connection supporting this. They have Richard as the nephew of Dorothy Belgrave who married William Saunders b.1492, great grandson of William Saunders of Somerset, d.1481. John's great granddaughter Alice Blower married Richard Brackett, step-son of Martin, son of Christopher Saunders parents unknown but who was married in Somerset hence a likely relative of William Saunders d.1481. Martin's (step) great granddaughter married a relative of the Saunders of Somerset (see comments for Francis Newcomb b.1605). If correct that should be enough for an (uncertain anyway) reattachment.

Comments

'They have Richard as the nephew of Dorothy Belgrave who married William Saunders b.1492, great grandson of William Saunders of Somerset, d.1481.'

Unfortunately the above statement (using the Geni.com information) is incorrect.  The William Saunders who married Dorothy Belgrave was of Welford in Northamptonshire and had no connection with Somerset.  He was

- the son of Edward Saunders of Welford

- the grandson of John Saunders

- the great grandson of Robert Saunders (living c 1437)

Sources : The Visitation of Northamptonshire 1618-1619; Visitation of Leicestershire 1619 and Visitation of Warwicshire 1619

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That is correct, I should have been clearer,.William Saunders of Welford b.1492 was the g grandson of William Saunders d.1481 who was of Somerset. Same family but a more distant connection.

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Geni.com is not a reliable source.