Have found more infor on John Hay, Scottish Soldier, and need help in finding the answers to final questions.

Question

Hello everyone. Good to  be back. Have been working to find answers to the questions about my part of the Hay family. I am pretty sure that the John Hay, who was the Scottish Soldier at the start of the quest to the American Hays. The problems lie in who the Hay men were who came to America and when they all were born...or even if one or two ever existed. In my line I know Catherine Hay Selby was the last Hay name. She was born in 1780 and died in 1810. There is a picture of the gravestone that bears her name. Adam Hay, her father, was born in 1738. However, I have nothing concrete that bears his date of birth. My grandmother was 2nd or 3rd born to Adam and his wife so that time just seems a little off to me. Now, Adam had a brother named  Simon who was born in 1742 which means he would not be Adam's father. (One thing to keep in mind here is that my DNA stopped at Simon, which to me means Simon isn't my grandfather. And there is a possibility that Michael John Hay, who was born in 1711 might be the son of the Scottish Soldier who would then be my next two grandfathers.) Now the next line gives me a chuckle. The John Hay who went to Germany from Scotland because of religious persecutions is the lineal grandson of William Hay, Earl of Erroll. My only question is WHICH Earl of Erroll might this be, since there were several. So that might be true, but how far back would we need to go to find the right Earl and who might the parents of John Hay be. I know that this doesn't answer the big question on a smooth transition from Scotland to Germany to America. But what I have picked up to far that there is a very good chance we did come from Scotland, so please help me find the missing link. Now I do remember that Heather Hay, a genealogist with Wikitree, said she was having one of her relatives of Adam Hay take a DNA test to see what that shows. Heather, thank you for that. Sorry I haven't kept up but have you found anything yet. It would be so nice to get this cleared up. Thank you everyone for your help.

Comments

I added some unsourced links to a few of your ancestral profiles and maybe that will help to highlight that those profiles need sources and information can be found.  Good luck!

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Thank you so much. Hopefully something will come of this. I have others that are about the same, but I want to work on them one at a time so I don't get mixed up. Again I appreciate your help.

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Hello Cousins Hay!

I posted this response to another question regarding Hay lineage, so sorry for the repeat info, but in case you missed it, here it is again:

Here is info that I have gathered on our Hay family in America...perhaps it parallels into someone else's info and you can help me confirm it:
Numbers list generations of Hays:
1) Gilbert Hay, 11th Earl of Erroll. Had a bad marriage to Catherine Carnegie. Bitter fights over her lack of love for him, her not wanting to have her father pay her dowry and not wanting to give him an heir. A Ballad was written about the situation. (You can find the Ballad on the Internet. It is quite famous). They divorced. Catherine became nanny to Prince of Wales' children after divorce. Gilbert (according to the Ballad and family tales) had child by another woman. Son's name was 'John''. Family tales say it was Johann Hoeh.

History books say Gilbert died without an heir. Family tale says Gilbert fled to Germany to escape the public ridicule his wife had caused him and also to avoid paying the fines he was being forced  to pay for his political loyalties. There is a group on Facebook called The Real Clan Hay. They have a lot of information.
 

It would make all make a great movie......

One of the difficulties in tracing our Hay lineage is that 4 generations named their sons Johann before their middle name. Very hard to keep track...!

2) Johann Hoeh b. 1644(?) d. 1704(?) Born in Germany. The mystery of the family lineage lies with this man. If he was the son of Gilbert, he should have been the next Earl of Erroll...except for the disgrace he suffered by his ex-wife and political and religious problems he was having with the throne then...

3) (Hanns or Johann) Simon Hoeh. b. Around 1682. Children: Anna Catherina, Johann Valentin, Johann Michael (my line), Anna Maria, Johann Adam, Johann Theobald, Anna Ottilia.

3) Johann Michael Hoeh 1711-1773. B. Gerhardshru Kaiserlautern , Rheinland Pfalz. d.1773 Gerhardsbrunn, Palatinate, Bayern, Germany

4) Johann Simon Hay 1742-1842 b. Gerhardshru Kaiserlautern Rheinland Pfalz Germany. d. Berlin, PA, USA. Immigrated with 2 bros Frantz and Valentine on good ship Sallee to PA. In 1763. Settled in Brother's Valley, built a gristmill and large fish pond. 

Simon took the 'Oath of Allegiance' as all foreign born Germans had to do during the US Revolution. This was a HUGE issue at the time and he was quite proud to do it. He is buried in Berlin, PA. His grave stone has 'Oath of Allegiance' engraved on it.

Children were Jacob, Michael, George (My Line), Peter, Valentine, Elizabeth(Weller), Catherine (Miller) and Susan (Baker).

An interesting note: a distant cousin of ours (through the Johann Valentine line I think...) is the 'spitting image' of a portrait of Sir William de la Haye which is hanging in a Castle in Scotland....this cousin is very handsome, one of 4 brothers, and has dark brown eyes. When he was in his 20's he had dark hair down to his shoulders...just like the portrait! This cousin would have had no way of knowing that his appearance was so strikingly similar to an alleged ancestor. He was a young professor of Physics at an American University at the time and had no info about his lineage then.

5) George William Hay (My family's line) was born in PA in 1782. George was a farmer and manufacturer. He married Mary Countryman. Children were: Simon, Benjamin, John, William, George, Harry (my family's line) Herman, Jacob, Elizabeth,(Hoyman), Harriet(Shoemaker). And Mary A. (Bragger).

6) Harry George Hay was born in Brothersvalley, Somerset, PA. He married Margarey Gary (Geary) in 1844. Children: Samuel Wesley. Laura F., Mary Jane, Minerva Ann, Charles, Herman Lavan (my line) and Ellen 'Ella',

7) Herman had 6 children. One was a daughter named Sarah Margaret (Sadie) (my line). Herman had a wild crow that he taught to 'talk' without cutting a fork in it's tongue. Family tales say The Smithsonian has a recording of the crow and Herman 'talking'. The crow knew several words and had an evil laugh it would make when it stole the clothes pins from Sadie's wash when he caused it to fall off the clothesline.

My family has an old Bible that dates marriages and births/deaths back to the early 1700's. I will try to upload a photocopy of the pages.

 

I hope this information was helpful...

 

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Hi Nancy. Sorry I didn't get back to you, but the timing was bad on my part. I was in the middle of moving, picked up a box and tore my right biscept tendon, fell in church two weeks a later and hurt it again, well....you get the idea. Anyway, your comments are very interesting. I knew the Gilbert was married to Ms. Carnegie, but didn't know they had divorced. That is a plausible story of John being his illegitimate son and perhaps our relative. It is so very interesting. I am from the Adam Hay/Hoh family. My 4th gg grandmother was Catherine Hay. She married Thomas Selby and moved to Jeromesville, Ashland County.  I grew up in Rowsburg, Ohio where my father's family grew up. I just wanted to know if you were aware if John Milton Hay, who was the secretary to President Lincoln and was with the president when he died. He was also Secretary of State to the next two presidents and an Ambassador. He also had something to do with the Open Trade with China and the building of the Panama Canal. His great grandfather was John Hay who was the brother to Adam Hay and to your grandfather. I just thought that was very interesting. Someday it would be nice to talk to you so we could go over all of the interesting our ancestors have done. Please keep me posted on when you find, and I will do the same.

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Hello

I'm looking for evidence that Gilbert Hay, 11th Earl of Erroll had an illegitimate son, who I also think was called John (but he didn't use Hay as a surname).   Have you managed to find any archival evidence of such a child ?  

regards

Steven

Answer 1

Hi Marilyn. First, if Adam Hay were born in 1738, he would only be 42 when Catherine was born. That is not unreasonable since she was not the firstborn and since men sometimes did (and do) marry a bit later in life. His wife may have been some years younger than he. Second, about halfway down the following web page is a list of the Earls of Erroll with their years of death. I would look at the 11th or even the 10th Earl of Erroll. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Erroll

Comments

Hi Loretta. How are you doing today. I have been pondering this problem for over a year now. I get some answers, but then others no longer fit. So I take all answers seriously. Regarding Catherine I know Adam is her father. There were several children in that family and she was in the top tear. being born 2nd or 3rd in the family. And my DNA proves I am related to them up to Michael Hay. So I must fix my family from Michael in America and John from Scotland. Okay, about the Earls of Erroll: Francis Hay, the 9th Earl of Erroll, had no sons names John, William, 10th Earl of Erroll, also ad no son named John and Gilbert Hay had no issue, so he is out. I am not really sure his father was a Earl...but he would be related to many of them. It does state somewhere (I can't remember where) that John and his brother, William, are on a church register was being trouble makers, but I don't know anything about that. Thank you so much for trying to help me. This one is very trying, but I would like to straighten this out. Trouble with this is I have a couple more that are as bad if not worse to clear up. You have a great Christmas and maybe we can help each other out again some time. Have a good night.

Answer 2

From Family of Hay by Charles J.  Colcock. 

 

Colonel Ann Hawkes Hay (1745-1785) was born at Kingston, Jamaica, West Indies, the only child of Micahel and Esther Wilkins Hay. He accompanied his uncle to New York to obtain an education and while there he married Martha Smith (1745-1821) in 1763, daughter of Judge William Smith. After their marriage, the couple went to Jamaica, but after the death of their first three children there, they returned to New York and settled at Haverstraw on the banks of the Hudson. They had twelve children, 1764-1785. He served in the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War. He died two years after the war in New York City. His widow died in South Carolina. Descendants listed, chiefly descendants of the children who migrated to South Carolina, lived in South Carolina, Georgia, and elsewhere.

 

This text talks about Clan Hay in the Americas and goes back to the origin of Clan Hay.