Robert (Bruce) Bruce Fourth Lord of Annandale
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Robert (Bruce) Bruce Fourth Lord of Annandale (abt. 1195 - abt. 1245)

Sir Robert Bruce Fourth Lord of Annandale formerly Bruce aka de Bruce de Brus
Born about in Annandale, Dumfriesshire, Scotlandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Son of and [mother unknown]
Brother of [half], [half] and [half]
Husband of — married 1209 in Huntingdonshire, Englandmap
Descendants descendants
Father of , , and
Died about at about age 50 in Huntingdon, Huntingdonshire, Englandmap
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Profile last modified | Created 18 Feb 2011
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Scottish Clans
Robert (Bruce) Bruce Fourth Lord of Annandale was a prominent member of a Scottish Clan.
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Biography

Notables Project
Robert (Bruce) Bruce Fourth Lord of Annandale is Notable.
Robert (Bruce) Bruce Fourth Lord of Annandale is a member of House of Bruce.

Robert IV de Brus was a 13th century Lord of Annandale. He was the son of William de Brus, 3rd Lord of Annandale and Christina, whose last name is unknown[1] (there are some who suggest his mother was Beatrice de Teyden but this has not been confirmed).

He married Isabella, the second daughter of David Dunkeld, Earl of Huntington[1], by which marriage he acquired the manors of Writtle and Hatfield Broadoak, Essex in England. They had issue, including:

  1. Robert, the Competitor", 5th of Annandale[1]
  2. Beatrice, m. Hugo de Neville, bef. 1221[1]
  3. Eupahame[2]
  4. Bernard[2]

Robert died in 1245 and his wife followed in 1251.[1] They are both buried in Sawtry Abbey, near Stilton. Cambridgeshire, England or in Gisborough Priory in North Yorkshire, England.[3]

Notice

Robert IV de Brus is the son of William de Brus, 3rd Lord of Annandale. Two candidates have been put forward as his mother: Christina, whose last name is unknown, but is also refered to as 'of Huntington' and secondly, Beatrice de Teyden. Both these women are linked as wives of William but, for now, neither is connected to Robert as his mother. http://www.thepeerage.com/p91.htm#i902 Cokayne says Beatrice is the wife and mother.

---

Scots Peerage lists only children Robert and Beatrice while Richardson lists only Robert and Bernard. Scots Peerage has no sources for this. While Richardson lists a vast array of sources, he does not list a specific one except for undoubted son Robert and in a footnote a long discussion of Bernard. Son Richard has a substantial source listed[4], but it is very old (1870) and not authoritative. Thus this matter is not settled.

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 Paul, James Balfour. "The Scots Peerage : founded on Wood's ed. of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland; containing an historical and genealogical account of the nobility of that kingdom", Edinburgh: David Douglas, 1905, Vol. II, Archive.org, p. 430
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Richardson, Douglas, "Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families", Salt Lake City: the author, 2013 Vol. I, p. 588
  3. ↑ Page: 252-27 Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700
  4. ↑ M.E. Cumming Bruce. Family records of the Bruces and the Cumyns, with an historical introduction and appendix, etc. [With genealogical tables.] Published 1870, William Blackwood and Sons Edinburgh.
  • Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, 2013, Vol. 1, pp588-589.
  • Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700, Edition: 7th ed. Abbreviation: Ancestral Roots, 7th ed. Author: Weis, Frederick Lewis, Editor: Sheppard Jr., Walter Lee Publication: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Baltimore, MD, 1992.




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Comments: 24

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Philip Bruce
Sorry all, have had a good look at what is required to meet WikiTree standards.

Is this sufficient evidence to suggest the Bruce family derived from Normandy? Robert the Bruce www.robertsewell.ca Encyclopedia Britannica https://www.britannica.com>topic. Source: Dictionary of National Biography, 1888 Editor: Leslie Stephan, 1886 Vol VII, page 114 to 117. Encyclopedia Britannica. 2009, from Encyclopaedia Britannica Online. Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages.

  • Sewell Vincent: Sample, The Royal Decents of 600 Immigrants, Baltimore, 2005.

Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia. Author: Carol Davis

  • Sir John Balfour Paul, The Scots Peerage, Edinburgh, 1904-1914
  • The Book of History (18 Volumes), London, 1914
  • Florence Van Resselaer, The Livingston Family in America and Scottish Origins, New York, 1949, page 30,31 and 55 to 58

Reprint below.

  • Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia, Funk & Wagnalls Inc, NY, copyright 1971 & 1975, Vol. 4, page. 292, reprint below.
  • Fredrick Lewis Weis: The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215. Baltimore, 1999.
  • Fredrick Lewis Weis: Ancestral Roots, Baltimore, 1999
  • Norman F. Cantor (ed) The Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages.
  • Richard Thompson: An Historical Essay of the Magna Charta of King John (London. 1829)
  • Dictionary of National Biography, Leslie Stephen, editor, 1886, Vol.
  • Norman Cantor F. (ed.) The Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, New York, 1999 pages 362-363.
  • Britannica, The Editors of Encyclopedia, "Bruce family". Encyclopedia Britannica, 12 Nov 1018.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brucefamily. Accessed 1 Feb 2023.

posted by Philip Bruce
edited by Philip Bruce
Madison-125 Bobbie (Madison) Hall
There's some discussion on his great-grandfather, Robert (Brus) de Brus's profile about possible Norman origins. You may want to read through the full profile and it's comments to familiarize yourself with the sources and arguments.
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Philip Bruce
So I'm being told that the only reliable source is the second Edition and Wikipedia! and that all the old records are deemed unreliable!, the Chambers Encyclopedia are talking crap, the 1st Edition are just talking crap?

Hmmm we have a problem!

posted by Philip Bruce
McCallum-175 Doug McCallum UE
That is definitely not what you are being told. For this profile, the numbered sources are being used as sources. The rest are essentially "see also" even if not listed that way. The preference is to have primary or good secondary sources, rather than derivative sources. A derivative source like "The Scots Peerage" usually has good source citations. Richardson's book is well sourced. The Chambers Encyclopedia and Find a Grave references you have been providing are unsourced so can't be considered useful at this time.
posted by Doug McCallum UE
Madison-125 Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Philip, no one has suggested the above to you that I can find. There are variations on reliability of genealogical and historical sources. One weighs various qualities in each, especially looking for the original sources that they do - or do not - supply.
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
edited by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Madison-125 Bobbie (Madison) Hall
I'm wondering if you're misunderstanding my link below to Wikipedia for the Scots Peerage as suggesting Wikipedia is a reliable source? It is simply a way to find all of the volumes easily. Volume IX is the index.
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Philip Bruce
Can Paul James Balfour 2nd Edition be considered a reliable source?

According to the 1st Edition, Robert Douglas would say "NO". The 2nd Edition should be removed, it's written with an agenda, the reason I'm saying this is the 1st Edition is accurate and when you compare the two peerage's we have a problem! The 2nd Edition is just full of misleading quotes and misinformation all over. Can Paul James Balfour's 2nd Edition be used as record?

Ps: Linda Beatrice de Teyden has no profile manager, can you help?

posted by Philip Bruce
edited by Philip Bruce
Madison-125 Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Sir James Balfour Paul was the Lord Lyon King of Arms, the officer responsible for heraldry in Scotland, from 1890 - 1926. Yes, his work is considered reliable. As with all massive works of this kind there will be errors and omissions, and whenever possible we search for the documents he cites in his footnotes. Wikipedia provides an easy way to access all nine volumes here.

Not all profiles need managers. If you have sources to add or corrections that need to be made, you can create a linked post in G2G tagged with Scotland and pre-1500 if appropriate. Provide reliable sources for your requests.

posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Philip Bruce
Thank you Bobbie.

I'm a little confused who wrote what!

  • Sir James BelfourPaul, Scott's Peerage, Edition II.
  • Sir John Balfour Paul, The Scots Peerage, Edinburgh, 1904-1914.

These are two different Scots Peerage's ? Is there a Scots Peerage, Edinburgh 1904-1914 ?

posted by Philip Bruce
edited by Philip Bruce
Madison-125 Bobbie (Madison) Hall
I'm not sure what you're refering to with "Edition II." The Scots Peerage, by Balfour Paul, had only one edition in 9 volumes to the best of my knowledge. It was an update and expansion of Douglas' Peerage of Scotland of 1764, and a second edition, completed and edited by Wood in 1813. The edition by Balfour Paul is much expanded and often contains footnotes that point to the original records that support the information he published.
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Philip Bruce
Bruce-177 death record.

Sir Robert de Bruis, 4th Lord of Annandale. b.1195 England d. 1233 England. Cemetery: Guisborough Priory, Guisborough, Redcar and Cleveland Unitary Authority, North Yorkshire, England

URL:https://www.Findagrave.com/memorial/60317494/robert_de-Brus Source Information: Ancestry. com, UK and Ireland; Find A Grave Index, 1300s-Current [database on-line] Date-2012

posted by Philip Bruce
Carruth-363 Linda (Carruth) Peterson
As stated in comments on other profiles that you have posted to, Find a Grave is NOT a death record. It can be a 'clue', but only if there are some sources included on the page, as well as dates, location and gravestone. There is no gravestone or any information on where the dates or information came from.

Please review the sources given in the profile, which have footnotes on where the information has come from. Those are considered Reliable Sources, which a Find a Grave page with no gravestone or sources is not.

posted by Linda (Carruth) Peterson
Philip Bruce
Linda are there any other death records for this profile?

If you have better information please share, please don't use Wikipedia. The last I heard Find A Grave deals in death. I would like to ask Linda what the hell is Wikipedia doing on this profile? Wikipedia is not regarded as a source at all by genealogists. I'm also seeing you are using people's trees as sources? This is very unsettling!

posted by Philip Bruce
edited by Philip Bruce
Carruth-363 Linda (Carruth) Peterson
I don’t know, but Find a Grave is not a death record, as you stated, especially when there is no gravestone. Anyone can create a Find A Grave page for anyone, but that doesn’t mean it has factual information on it.
posted by Linda (Carruth) Peterson
Philip Bruce
That's why I've posted, so that you can look into it as this is what collaboration is all about.

Did not state anything?

posted by Philip Bruce
edited by Philip Bruce
Butler-12579 Michael (Butler) Crawford-Butler
From his father's profile it seems his mother, the unknown Christina, is Christine (FitzAlan) FitzAlan Countess of Dunbar (abt. 1144 - aft. 1215) FitzAlan-645
posted by Michael (Butler) Crawford-Butler
Madison-125 Bobbie (Madison) Hall
While editing, the following warning was received and needs to be addressed:
  • A child's birth date (Bruce-2279 born 1200) should not be before a parent is six years old (Bruce-177 born 1195) .
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Lancaster-1279 Andrew Lancaster
Sanders, English Baronies, p.102, says he died 1230. It is a very compressed book but more often than not it is right.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Atkinson-107 John Atkinson
Beatrice de Teyden is not the wife of William de Brus, the Peerage has misquoted Cokayne. Beatrice married Robert de Brewes (died 1276) a totally different family, as his second wife, and their daughter Beatrice who was the heir of her mother married Hugh de Neville.
posted by John Atkinson
Adkins-1808 Raymond Eugene Adkins Jr. (1949-2018)
De Bruce-45 and Bruce-177 appear to represent the same person because: same 4th of Annandale, dates vary, sketchy details De Bruce-45 worth a look.
posted by Raymond Eugene Adkins Jr. (1949-2018)
Marc Cohen
Too little is known about De_Bruce-45 to approve this merge. Almost none of the data match, and De_Bruce-45 is listed as the father of Euphemia, whereas Bruce-177 is listed as the brother of Eupheme.
posted by Marc Cohen
Turvey-154 Andrew Turvey
This appears to be the same person as http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Bruce-45

How do I merge the profiles?

posted by Andrew Turvey
Thomas-10705 Michael Thomas
I am the manager of Clan Bruce in the Scottish Clans Project. Please do me a favor and change the LNAB from "de Bruce" to simply "Bruce." It makes the name a little easier to sort and is in line with Wikitree's naming policies. Thanks very much!
posted by Michael Thomas
Adkins-1808 Raymond Eugene Adkins Jr. (1949-2018)
Bruce-177 and Brus-15 appear to represent the same person because: Another adopted profile, looks like a match, lived to a 100 years, probably not. just trying to clean it up. thanks gene adkins
posted by Raymond Eugene Adkins Jr. (1949-2018)

Rejected matches › Robert (Brus) de Brus IInd of Annandale (abt.1120-abt.1189) › Robert (Bruce) Bruce the Competitor Fifth Lord of Annandale (1210-1295) › Robert (Bruce) de Brus (bef.1144-abt.1190) › William (Brus) Bruce IIIrd Lord of Annandale (abt.1145-abt.1212) › Robert Bruce (abt.1863-1932) › Roger Bigod (abt.1212-1270) › Robert Charles Bruce (1915-2003) › Robert Neville Bruce (1950-1950)

Featured Female Poet connections: Robert is 15 degrees from Anne Bradstreet, 28 degrees from Ruth Niland, 28 degrees from Karin Boye, 32 degrees from 照 松平, 17 degrees from Anne Barnard, 24 degrees from Lola Rodríguez de Tió, 27 degrees from Christina Rossetti, 22 degrees from Emily Dickinson, 37 degrees from Nikki Giovanni, 27 degrees from Isabella Crawford, 21 degrees from Mary Gilmore and 22 degrees from Elizabeth MacDonald on our single family tree. Login to find your connection.

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