Request/Change Proposal for the Died Young Sticker [closed]

Question

I have recently stepped in the role of PL for the Remember the Children Project.  I have had a lot of requests to change the cherub/flying baby artwork on the {{Died Young}} sticker to something more neutral.  

As an alternative, Steve Harris has created a template where it is possible to add an image.  For example: {{Died Young|image=RTC_-_Pictures.jpg}} which will give the Pink & Blue Ribbon.  But, the requests to change the cherub/flying baby to a neutral still keep coming probably because it is easier to type {{Died Young}} than the longer string.

As WikiTree becomes more and more Global, I propose we change the cherub/flying baby artwork on the {{Died Young}} sticker to the neutral Pink & Blue ribbon.  

NOTE:  The cherub/flying baby would not go away; it just would not be the default image for the {{Died Young}} sticker.  

Remember the Children Project Page

• Remember the Children Sticker Page sample profiles of both stickers located on this page
• People Who Died Young Page details on cherub/flying baby

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EDIT:   This ribbon is suggested in place of the cherub/flying baby on the {{Died Young}} sticker.  If we could keep the discussion narrowed to this one topic, I would really appreciate it.

If you prefer to use a different graphic for an older child's death, please visit the Project's sticker page for options.  We offer graphics for those older children (of any age) that might be more preferable.

Comments

As I was the one who raised the issue, I consider there was good and strong debate, and a decent amount of input from people actively involved in two separate but linked Projects.

I see no comparison between that debate and this issue.

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I would like to know the last time a default image was changed on a sticker that affected almost 200,000 profiles!!  That is a lot of profiles being changed without an entry in the Changes Log for people to even realize that it occurred.

The proposal 'title' does not say that the default image is going to be changed. You have to completely read the entire question, which i did I multiple times before I saw that it says the default image will be changed. Adding a parameter that people could use if they choose is one thing.  Now everyone that wants the sticker to look as it did when they used it must waste the time to change them.  No can find all the profiles that were edited and changed, unless they created them or have them still in their watchlist.

I think this controversy should make everyone realize how little people look at G2G lately.

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Harris-5439 wrote:

Stickers come under style rules so I think we are citing the correct procedure, otherwise there is no requirement to consult, and the templates project is free to make changes as they wish.

So, basically, what you're saying is that the members of the Templates Project, whoever they are, are free to do whatever they want with stickers, and don't even have to bother making proposals at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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The section headed
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Stickers#Creation_and_Editing

 Contains no text or information on modifying existing stickers, but only on sticker creation, could you please give the correct reference to the procedure for editing or modifying existing stickers?
 I simply cannot see how the process adopted in this instance complies with the honour code, there was no option to vote for if a change was to take place, or an oportunity to advocate for a different new sticker, and any attempt to raise that issue was promptly shut down.
 I only counted 15 answers to the proposal, 9 in favour, 3 neutral, 3 against. From the reaction to the change it appears many people were unaware of the proposal, and the Templates project never advised that they were considering the proposal. It appeared to be a G2G thread that faded out.
 Put simply, there was inadequate consultation, I see that as a lack of courtesy to the members, and from the reaction I appear not to be the only one.

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I've been and looked at that thread, it was well debated, and more importantly it was about replacing historically inaccurate images with the correct image for the time period.

 Further, there appears to be no opposition to change, the debate was all about which was the correct image for the period.

 In this current issue there was opposition to the change.

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This proposal was posted under policy and style, as such saying:

Stickers and their usage is a style rule (the Help pages) but the individual stickers themselves are not styles - they are stickers - the result of wider style rules

As a reason the changes procedure does not apply seems inherently contradictory, as stated the changes procedure apply to Stickers and their usage, a change to the sticker including the image is a change to it's usage.

 

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Hi everyone, this thread is closed. If you feel there needs to be changes made in any current procedures or a new procedure proposed, please start a new discussion post. Thanks!

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I see Gary did here, thanks!

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I've posted two proposals on G2G, one for a procedure for changes to stickers, and one to revert to the previous sticker which will provide a forum to establish if the new or previous stickers have more support

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Thank you, Gary.

Answer 1

I wholeheartedly agree with your proposal!

Answer 2

I agree, Sandy. I much prefer the ribbon. (And, no one has to type the longer string to use it now; copy/paste and keep it in notepad, or a similar document.)

Answer 3

A pink ribbon signifies Breast Cancer Awareness and a blue one signifies support for the prevention of child abuse, and support for the victims. It is not appropriate to use them to mark an infant death.

Comments

The pink and blue is also used for "death in childbirth".

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Joe -

Thank you for adding your comment.  Those colors, separately, on a ribbon is exactly as you described.

The combination of the two colors (pink/blue) in a ribbon is commonly referred to as Child or Baby Loss Awareness Ribbon.

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I see the pastel pink and pastel blue as 1)used for infants (not every died young is an infant) and 2) likely not a universal symbol (or color choice) for the entire world.

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OK, I didn't know that, sorry.  Is this just for babies, then ? I thought the project was for people who died young; up to the age of 18 ( or legal age ).

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Kristina, the ability to add a parameter (image=) after a pipe allows for different images for "died young".  I have been using my "blue butterfly" more often recently, as well as stone butterfly and stone baby feet.

  

All three of those have the extended code on my RTC images page under the header "Assorted".
Of course, with the ability to use a parameter, people are now free to use any image they deem more suitable for the profile.

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Hi Joe, the pink/blue ribbon is typically seen for infant deaths, but they can be used for children up to 18. I have one on my aunt's profile. She died in a terrible car accident at age 17.

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I want to know if this ribbon is an American symbol or is it used world wide? We need to be more adaptable.

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Kristina -

My research has this particular ribbon for Pregnancy and Infant/Child loss "worldwide".  The definition of worldwide does not always mean every single location.  

October 15th of every year is designated as Worldwide Rememberance Day which includes US, Mexico, Canada, Europe, Australia with more locations observing every year.

This post is specifically about changing the cherub/flying baby to the pink/blue ribbon.  I appreciate your comments and also wanting to make sure something is universal.

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Hi Kristina, I did a quick search and no where does it say what country the Blue/Pink ribbon is for. The Wikipedia page for the ribbon did not specify this either, but does mention that the Pregnancy and Infant Loss Remembrance Day is the same day in October for Canada, the United States, Australia and the UK.

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@Melanie, the dilemma is that 'Died Young' encompasses birth to 18 years of age. I don't think 'baby feet' should be the default sticker for that age range. I contributed a link that discusses the Renaissance 'cherub' in great detail and it is less a christian symbol and more a peace, harmony, love symbol. I think these ideas are much more relevant to an infant to young adult death than baby feet or butterflies, especially since the time frame encompasses the 1500s to current times. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think the cherub, at least for now, should be the default given that the ribbon ONLY encompasses death at birth. With the advance of WikiTree globally, we my need to have culturally relevant images for death and perhaps assign them Died Young (cherub as default as there are over 100K and encompass some 500 years) Died Young-1 (ribbon for death at birth for various reasons); Died Young-2 (which might be a Star of David for Jewish children); Died Young-3 (which might be an image of Jizo Boddhisatva for children in certain regions of Asia), etc.

P.S. I've been doing my own survey of friends who a members of the local historical society and friends/colleagues who work in hospice care of children from infants to 16 years. It is anonymous. I've gotten 7 responses since Tuesday. The latest one left a comment that they would select the cherub, but could there be a selection of 'shades from light to dark for children of color'. The person also said that the pink/blue ribbon is only for miscarriage or babies who died at birth, not for older children (anonymous survey, but my guess is hospice worker).

Answer 4

I agree with the proposal. The ribbon would be more appropriate for the profiles of older children especially to my way of thinking. The cherub always reminds me of babies and toddlers.

Comments

Donna, the ribbon is only relevant to miscarriage, babies who died at birth, not to older children. Cherubs are seen on headstones of children up to young adulthood who died in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19, and 20th centuries in Western Europe, which is likely why the WikiTree person who developed this sticker for these pre-adulthood deaths chose the Renaissance cherub that symbolized, peace, harmony, love which makes it more relevant as a 'default sticker'.

Answer 5

That sticker is already there: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:RTC_-_Resources and I remember a G2G discussion of only using the angel for families where angels are a part of their religious faith such as Roman Catholics.

See this discussion: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1561250/people-who-died-young-sticker-change

Comments

Liza -

Yes, the sticker template is already there with extra coding needed. But, the template has the cherub/flying baby.  That template is used, for example, with Sourcer.  It is automatically added to profiles that are created with Sourcer or updated with AutoBio.  Also, we still have a tremendous amount of WikiTree'ers that might not understand about adding a pipe and extra text/code.

While I understand this is probably preceived as a convenience factor, I have received enough requests that I felt a G2G proposal was warranted.

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I have no objection to the change

Answer 6

I would love to join this project! I am a photographer and I volunteer with Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep (NILMDTS), an organization that provides the gift of remembrance portraits to families experiencing the death of a baby.

Comments

Thank you so much for your work with that organization. My daughter was born at 29 weeks but when we weren't sure how long we'd be able to gestate her (I had complications and went into labor at 19 weeks, luckily were able to halt it for a while and get steroids on board to develop her lungs) it was a very uncomfortable process finding a photographer comfortable with coming to the hospital to photograph a maybe not living infant. We had no idea what to expect and I wish I had known a few more resources to try. I mention this to all my high risk pregnancy mama friends if they are wanting a stillborn photo.

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@ Shonda -  The Join Post is here. 

I, too, would like to thank you for your work with NILMDTS.  You are so great for doing something so special to provide comfort.

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Erin, I’m so sorry for your experience. And thank you for working with at-risk mamas! 

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Thank you, Sandy. I somehow missed that.

Answer 7

Please change the sticker. The fact that it defaults to a religious image is unacceptable.

Comments

New sticker options have been added. You can find the new stickers here: Remember the Children stickers

It will still default to the angel with Sourcerer at this point. They will just need to remove the coding for the Sourcerer option as they cannot guess each person's religious or non-religious beliefs.

Answer 8

I agree with what you propose Sandy. To me the cherub does infer a very young child and it is only recently that I discovered that "Died Young" can apply up to age 18; I have limited its use to those under 10 years. I like the ribbon, but do other cultures use ribbons to signify certain things? There are so many about now that I don't know what the majority mean.

Coincidentally I was looking a churchyard in Bath, England this afternoon and found a gravestone commemorating a sister and brother who died aged 11 days and 2 years 8 months respectively. There was enough information on the stone to create profiles and identify their parents so that will be a little diversion from my main family project and the other odd side alleys I wander down.

Comments

My research has this particular ribbon for Pregnancy and Infant/Child loss "worldwide".  The definition of worldwide does not always mean every single location.  

October 15th of every year is designated as Worldwide Rememberance Day which includes US, Mexico, Canada, Europe, Australia with more locations observing every year.

I want to also thank you for remembering the brother and sister and adding them to WikiTree.  I feel like they both are connected to their parents on our big tree.

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I've never heard of this "Worldwide" day, and when I tried to find it all I came up with was an American thing called "National Pregnancy and Infant Loss Remembrance Day " (although it does mention other countries, including Australia (none of my family members in Aus have heard of it, not surprising as it apparently only became a thing in 2021).
They use a pink and blue ribbon — but they also use butterflies.

As has been said, these remembrance ribbons are not universal.  The colours, also, may have other meanings for different cultures.  
I'm not sure we could come up with an image that makes everyone happy, but butterflies have been discussed in the past — which is why I created several images using them.
Why not use something like a butterfly?  It seems in most cultures butterflies have positive symbolism.

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Melanie -

I would like to keep this thread to just one graphic:  the ribbon.  

It seems like, in the past, no decision was made when we started adding in other graphics.

I have family in the UK and Austria that do recognize October 15th and collegues in Mexico that do as well.  Not every type of event is announced on the internet especially on topics as sensitive as this one.

Before posting this G2G post, IRL, I asked many that lost children and two support groups what graphic they would chose for a remembrance on a profile.  Only about 1% chose a butterfly. Also, only about 1% chose a generic ball graphic.

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I would like to keep this thread to just one graphic:  the ribbon.  

commented by Sandy Patak 

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Then I would have to say the ribbon would not be my first choice to be the default image.

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Just to make sure of another culture, I just asked two colleagues with family back in India.  They both, instantly, responded that in their culture:  Pink is for girls and Blue is for boys.

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That is ok too.

Every opinion counts. :)

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My Indian family say pink for girls and blue for boys is English, like white for brides instead of red.

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I'm sorry but in my culture the Pink Ribbon stands for Cancer and the Blue for child abuse. I haven't seen any article that reflects to the use of both those colors to stillborn children. However if you decide on the use of this double colored ribon. Why not use the one Melanie created and that says it all to my honest opinion. 

Can't seem to get the picture in correctly.

Answer 9

I support changing the template's default image from a winged child's head to a two-coloured ribbon. After all, the option to choose a different image and include it in the template's code is now also available. #thumbsup

Answer 10

I agree with this proposal.

Answer 11

I think it's a good idea.
As a supplement, I'll give a brief overview of how this is viewed overall in Germany.
Children who died before, during or shortly after birth are generally called Sternenkinder (star children), but the terms Schmetterlingskind (butterfly child) and Engelskind (angel child) also occur. Since many things are regulated in Germany, there are even legal regulations for this.
The term refers to those who, due to additional requirements of personal status legislation (in Germany, at least 500 grams of body weight or, if less than 500 grams, at least reached the 24th week of pregnancy), did not get an entry as a person in the birth register. The term was used over time for more and more children who died prematurely. At the beginning of 2013, the law on civil status was amended so that parents of stillborn children - even retroactively and irrespective of their birth weight and the duration of pregnancy - can have them registered in the civil register.
For some time now, the pink and light blue ribbon has been used as a symbol for these children.
It symbolizes the memory of babies who died before, in or shortly after birth. These include: "miscarriages", "stillbirths", SIDS = sudden infant death syndrome.
This symbol would not include older children. However, I would have no problem with using it for all deceased children, although I would intentionally not specify the age, everyone must decide for themselves.
As my father once said, "You can be retired yourself, but to your mother you will always be a child."

Answer 12

Thanks so much Sandy for making this symbol come to "fruition"

Answer 13

I think the proposal to not default to the cherub is good. The ribbon might be the best alternative but you won't please everyone. Most symbols will have negative connotations somewhere, especially in different time periods. For example, the butterfly has had negative connotations in some cultures. Mostly it either represents a rebirth or a soul / spirit (either looking to be born or on the way to an afterlife).

Answer 14

I do NOT support this change. If it is approved, I would like to know how to code the sticker to retain the winged cherub image.

Comments

Margaret, thank you for your comment. This helps us gauge what the thoughts are about the proposal. 

The good news is that no matter what the decision ends up being, the cherub/flying baby is not going away.  And, if it's changed, I will definitely make sure the code for the cherub/flying baby makes it to you. 

Answer 15

Here’s another “yes” vote for the change to the new sticker.

To be honest, I always thought the flying baby looked a bit odd. In fact, it took me a while to figure out what it was supposed to be. The ribbon is a cleaner graphic, and more easily recognizable as a memorial-type image.