G2G: Could we please accept both "County Derry" and "County Londonderry" in the north of Ireland?

Question

_{Could we add "County Derry" as an alias for "County Londonderry" in Northern Ireland? Thanks!}

_{That will avoid the error 608:
"Misspelled country in birth location  →county Derry, Ireland -> County Kerry, Ireland"}

Answer 1

Absolutely not. The reason I say that is because there is not and never has been a County Derry.

County Londonderry was formed in 1613, mainly from the old County Coleraine, and remained in existence until 1972 when it ceased to be used as an administrative entity. The area is now governed, since 2015, under three different districts; Derry and Strabane, Causeway Coast and Glens and Mid-Ulster.

The shiring of Ulster was undertaken in 1585, when the area was described as the County of Coleraine. Following the defeat of the Irish earls and the confiscation of their lands in 1609, English colonization was undertaken by livery companies of the City of London and the Honourable Irish Society (founded 1610). A charter of 1613 established the county of Londonderry, which comprised the old county, O’Neill lands of Loughinsholin, and small parts of Donegal and Antrim.

Despite not being used by government as an administrative area both County Londonderry and the province in which it is contained, Ulster, are still used by sporting and other bodies and of course in genealogy.

County Londonderry is one of the six counties that form the present day Northern Ireland which became a separate jurisdiction from Ireland after 1922. It is also one of the 9 counties of the Province of Ulster.

The use of Derry is absolutely correct for the City but not for the County. In deference to Northern Ireland however the City these days is called Derry/Londonderry

Comments

If the problem are suggestions, there are several ways to fix it.

I can explicitly prevent the Derry -> Kerry suggestion. 

and I can add 618 suggestion to change "County Derry" to "County LondonDerry".

---

Thanks Ales. Sounds like a solution to me.

---

Done. See https://plus.wikitree.com/function/WTShowTable/Table.htm?table=Countries&filter=IRL

You can check the Derry suggestions next week.

---

Thanks Ales

---

To restate my comment into the thread that Aleš and David will see:
 

Given that we're working this very week to welcome all of the genealogists from Northern Ireland, I believe that suggesting that "County Derry" is a misspelling that must be corrected is just not in the welcoming spirit of WikiTree. It's too politically charged, and is better left alone.

Please just allow WikiTree+ to accept County Derry and County Londonderry as the same place. Folks will see that County Derry does not appear in the FamilySearch place names list, and they can carry on following WikiTree's guidance for automatic place name suggestions. We're just poking the badger unnecessarily.

---

---

Feargal is right to point to the WikiTree rule "Use their conventions instead of ours".

The question then arises: who are "they"?

My view is that "they" should refer to the ancestors we are documenting, not to the government in power at the time, or even to other people who lived in the same area.

Therefore if you know your ancestors thought of themselves as living in County Derry, you are at liberty to mark the new 618 suggestion of County Londonderry as false.

---

I absolutely agree as all my familys papers form "Londonderry" say Derry. Seems as if others are making it more difficult or a political issue. We're here to trace our family roots PERIOD!

Answer 2

I'm not sure how WikiTree handles placenames from multilingual societies, but could we also add Contae Dhoire as an alias?

This is a hot topic as discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/Londonderry_name_dispute

The county is, and always has been, referred to by a significant proportion of the inhabitants and by organisations such as the Placenames Database of Ireland and the Gaelic Athletic Association as Contae Dhoire (in Irish) or as County Derry (in English).  See
https://www.logainm.ie/en/100011
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry_GAA
etc.

The sensitivities over the use of Derry or Londonderry or Derry/Londonderry by different communities living in the city and the county are such that some people jokingly refer to the city as Stroke City.  See the afore-mentioned Wikipedia page and
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Stroke_City

The Placenames Database of Ireland gives both Derry and Londonderry as English language equivalents of Doire:
https://www.logainm.ie/en/58666

Comments

However the The Placenames Database of Ireland is actually incorrect BUT I will concede that if you can produce the Placenames Order relating to the use of both then by all means have both. The other question is, and I have not tried it, what does the feed to the placenames drop down have?

ETA: No it is not in the Family Search placenames feed that fills the dropdown.

---

The dropdown uses exclusively "Derry" for the city and exclusively "Londonderry" for the County. (as is the compromise used on Wikipedia, [unless in a set name])

---

I was only talking about the County not being in the dropdown. There always was a City of Derry, or at least a town. That bit is not an issue.

---

Hmm, I can see the placenames dropdown offers up "Contae Dhoire" from 1613 onward, but not "Contae Londaindhoire" (not sure how that would be spelled). Our WikiTree language dropdown has left the Scots Gaelic speakers out in the cold, but FamilySearch offers up "Coontie Lunnonderrie" on their place names page.
 

---

Yes I get you, but I'm just explaining the context as to why they use that, seeing as officially they're both "Londonderry".

---

The dropdown is fed by Family Search so if it accepts the Scots version it should be in their list.

---

Well, that's because it's never been called "Contae Londaindhoire", either officially or unofficially.

---

Of course strictly speaking County Offaly and County Laois did not exist and should not be used. You won't find them in the census but the Irish, or rather post 1922 names are official. Can you imagine the mess if all categories had to conform? Well actually I can and in my opinion they should but I got overruled on that a long time ago (2019)

---

And I see that FamilySearch is wrong about Coontie Lunnonderrie, which is of course Scots and not Scottish Gaelic, which uses Siorrachd Dhoire. And you're right that adding every one of these to WikiTree+ would be quite an effort.

---

I don't think (Scottish) Gaelic warrants being added anyway Irish, Ulster Scots and English are spoken in the north.

---

Good point. Here we see in the screenshots that we already suggest Contae Dhoire when the WikiTree user has selected the Irish language. The trick is to remember to set the desired language, as the automatic suggestions are served up for a single language at a time.

---

For some reason I am unable to comment on your last comment in the block below but if these Genealogists are from Northern Ireland they would likely be highly delighted. I would imagine many of them would not thank you for calling County Londonderry County Derry.

---

Many would indeed not thank you for calling County Londonderry County Derry. But the true is also the same in reverse. All I'm asking is that its not enforced either way.

Answer 3

I would absolutely think that "County Derry" should be accepted as an alias to "County Londonderry".
I'm extremely sorry to say that I utterly and wholeheartedly disagree with "County Derry" being corrected to "County Londonderry".
There isn't or never has officially been a County Derry, but that is the name used by a sizable portion of the population. Enforcing one or the other is extremely politically charged.
Adding suggestions to "correct" County Derry to County Londonderry is absolutely not necessary, and is honestly asking for trouble in my opinion.

Comments

Sure the principle to "use their conventions" allows for "County Derry" to be used regardless of its official standing?

---

I could not agree more, Feargal, and I say that as an Englishman living in Letterkenny and working in Derry.

---

That's my thinking as well, that there's no need to push for "County Derry" as an official place name in FamilySearch's place names API. It's fine by me that they just offer it up as a variant name, but I'm a US citizen and I've never been in the county myself, nor do I have ancestors from the area.

Given that we're working this very week to welcome all of the genealogists from Northern Ireland, I believe that suggesting that "County Derry" is a misspelling that must be corrected is just not in the welcoming spirit of WikiTree.