G2G: John Lisle was the grandfather of Henrietta Crofts (Crofts-203)?

Question

The Dictionary of National Biography  (quoted in the wikipedia article on James Cotter the Younger) says that Charles Paulet, 2nd Duke of Bolton and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland during James' trial was married to Henrietta Crofts, the granddaughter of John Lisle, regicide aka the Lord Lisle who was assassinated by James' father under an alias

However, I cannot figure out how Eleanor would have been related to John Lisle - they aren't currently linearly related. Any ideas would be appreciated - maybe this one of those step-granddaughter/grandfather or grandfather in-law situations? They are connected through a complicated set of marriages.

Update: I think the only possibility is Robert Needham must have m. a da. of John Lisle, but I can't find any pedigrees with his spouses names.

Update 2: I fleshed out John's children, and Robert Needham's family and they don't connect linearly. 

 

Comments

From my other Lisle question, here's a pedigree with some daughters and none of them are married to Sir Robert Needham.

Answer 1

In the Wikipedia article on James Cotter the Younger, it is actually a book by A. Marshall that is the source for the statement, that the wife of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland at the time of the trial is the granddaughter of John Lisle, but it doesn't actually name these people.

I'm not sure when the trial actually happened but Charles Paulet, 2nd Duke of Bolton, was Lord Lieutenant from April 1717 to Nov 1719 and he was followed by Charles Fitzroy, 2nd Duke of Grafton from 1720-1724.  There might have been a gap of some months between one and the other?

However I can't see that the wife of Charles Fitzroy was a granddaughter of John Lisle either. She ws Henrietta Somerset, daughter of Charles Somerset, Marquess of Worcester and Rebecca, the daughter of Sir Josiah Child. There also doesn't seem to be enough time for a granddaughter of John Lisle to be of marriageable age by 1719-1720?

I think that maybe Mr or Ms Marshall is either mistaken or has been misread?

Comments

Thanks John - maybe this is all politics or propaganda and not a true story.

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Double-checked the source, it was Henrietta Crofts: "In addition, Cotter's father was widely known to have been responsible for the murder of Lord Lisle, the grandfather of Henrietta, duchess of Bolton, wife of the then lord lieutenant of Ireland."

Regarding the dates, I think in Nov. 1719 meant he was no longer resident at Dublin Castle but he was still the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in March during the trial and his execution in May. Charles, duke of Grafton was installed in June, 1720.

The only possibility is Sir Robert Needham m. a da of John Lisle and Alice Beaconshaw; their da. Anne, Mary and Maybella were all alive and unmarried in 1682, Anne being the best possibility since she had a £1200 dowry but she d. 17 Feb 1703 as Ann Hartell.

 

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Looked into and connected Robert Needham - he's the cousin of the Viscounts Kilmorey, and I don't see how he could possibly connect to the Lisles of Moyles Court. The link possibly was just anti-Catholic/Jacobite propaganda.

I should start keeping track how often these throwaway relations in the DNB don't pan out!

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Update: A letter from Alan St. Leger, a landowner from County Cork (Public Records Office of Northern Ireland, Chancery Papers: Ridgeway-Pitt estate, T/3425/2/23) refers to a visit he made to the condemned man, and states ‘I told him when he was under sentence of death that he ought to prepare himself for I really thought if all my friends could do would avail nothing for his father stabb’d my Lord Lisle the Dutchess of Bolton’s grandfather and gott the estate by ye means.’  St. Leger’s letter has subsequently been cited by other historians, but no one makes any effort to validate that she was in fact the grand-daughter of Lord Lisle.

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As written, it doesn't have to mean the current Duchess, it could mean the Duchess at the time of the stabbing, or any of the other Duchesses.

The Duchess at the time of the stabbing was Mary Scrope, who was illegitimate.  I don't suppose her mother's father was Lord Lisle.  But who knows what the gossip was.

One of Lisle's granddaughters was nearly Duchess of Bedford at one time - her husband James Russell was heir presumptive until his brother's attainder got reversed.

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Eleanor Needham, after the death of the Duke of Monmouth, married John South, a Commissioner of Revenue, who died in 1711, and I did wonder if maybe he was somehow related to Lord Lisle, but I couldn't see anything that fitted. John South would be the stepfather of Henrietta Crofts, Duchess of Bolton.

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Re: RJ - I'm on board with any theories at this point, but the DNB is saying Henrietta Crofts.

Re: John - I fleshed out the Lisle ancestry and these are their children, no Souths.

Children of John Lisle and Alice Beaconshaw

1. William Lisle (d. unm 1654)^[4]
2. Beaconshaw LIsle (d. unm 1653) ^[4]
3. John Lisle (d. 1709) m. (1) Catherine Croke (d. 17 Oct 1684) 2s. Charles & John (2) 1702 Ann Howe^[5]
4. Alice Lisle (b. 1640) m. July 1657 at St. Margaret's Westminster, Edward Zouch (d. 1658) (2) Oct 1663 Richard Glanville ^[4]
5. Elizabeth Lisle m. Dec 1659 Robert Gurdon (b. 1615)^[4]
6. Bridget Lisle m.(1) Leonard Hoar, 3rd president of Harvard; (2) Hezekiah Usher^[6]
7. Tryphena Lisle m.(1) Richard Lloyd, (2) Robert Grove^[7]
8. Margaret Lisle (bapt. 3 July 1643) m. 1672 Rev. Robert Whitaker; lived in Stucton near Fordingbridge^[8]
9. Mary Lisle m. (Matthew?) Browne^[9]
10. Maybella Lisle^[9]
11. Anne Lisle (b. 1664) m. 1 Mar 1686 Edward Harfell^[10]