G2G: Should we use Hauteville or Altavilla for the Italian branch of this family?

Question

A number of the sons of Tancred de Hauteville, a Norman noble, effectively emigrated to Italy in about 1050 and founded dynasties there who ruled in parts of southern Italy, including Sicily until about 1200.

Most of the current profiles on Wikitree use Hauteville as their Last Name at Birth (LNAB) with a few other names including Sicilia, but some profiles have recently been created using Altavilla (actually di Altavilla, but the EuroAristo naming standards would drop the di)

So should we go with Hauteville as the LNAB to keep them altogether, or once they settle in Italy, change the LNAB to Altavilla or even Autavilla, which is apparently the Sicilian spelling?

(To complicate matters a branch of the Italian family went on crusade and made themselves Princes of Antioch for a few generations - but perhaps that's a problem for another day)

Comments

The letter "h" doesn't fit into many Italian words, it's almost a vowel (though that's not a good description either)....just a thought, I would trend more toward the Autavilla (just my opinion, I don't know).

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What is the status on this? I'm stacking up duplicates that merging.

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I might ask the question again, but make it more generic about what names we should use when royal/noble families move location?  Will have to do that tonight my time, as just off to work.

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Thx John! Also take a look at "Category: European Royals and Aristocrats 742-1499 Project Needs Merging" ... this might help you come to a decision. I've got about 15 profiles in that category right now.

 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:European_Royals_and_Aristocrats_742-1499_Project_Needs_Merging

Answer 1

With reference to Tancred di Lecce, in my opinion , the correct version should be "Tancredi Altavilla. He became conte (count) di Lecce after 1149 and re (king) di Sicilia in 1189. In "Name Fields for European Aristocrats", proper first name (2) at birth shall be in the person's native language , while last name at birth (6) shall be they had (or would have been known by) when they were born. Tancredi was born in Lecce (Puglia, southern Italy) and was illegitimate son of Ruggero duca di Puglia e di Calabria and of Emma di Lecce (likely), therefore at birth nobody could foresee he was going to become king of Sicily. Sicily is the name of a region or kingdom, not of an house or family and the title was held in succession by the following houses: Altavilla, Hohenstaufen, Angiò (Anjou) , Aragonesi, ,  Asburgo, Borbone, Murat, Savoia. All of them of foreign origin adopting an Italian name. Tancredi lived also in Bisantium (nowdays Turkey) Alessandria d'Egitto, Sicily and continental south of Italy, but his mother tongue was certainly latin as official language of cultivated people and primitive italian (volgare) as different local dialcts in development. For this reason I would exclude the Sicilian form of the family name "Autavilla", never used in official history texts.

The habit of using an Italian equivalent of the family names was very widespread among rulers coming from abroad,(almost 100% if of French origin in  XII - XIV sec.) . For example Hauteville = Altavilla, de Baux = del Balzo, Etendard = Stendardo, de Celan  = Celano, d'Anjou = d'Angiò. Even in Frorence cathedral there is still the fresco paintinng of the English mercenary commander John Hawkwood -> Giovanni Acuto. The same habit did not exist for most   Spanish names and was less usual for Germans.

 Baracchi-1

Comments

I expressed my opinion on the comparatively simple case of the correct name of Tancredi Altavilla, but not all cases allow a simple answers. Let consider the case of another very famous king of Sicily and Emperor of Holy Roman Emperor:  Federico , son of Costanza Altavilla (Aunt of Tancredi) and of Heinrich VI Hohenstaufen. He was born in Jesi (center of Italy on the adriatic coast) from a mother  born in Italy (Sicily) in a family of normand origin and could speak fluently at least 6 languages: latin, sicilian (proto-italian language), german, arabic, greek, french, He was raised in Palermo (Sicily) till the age of  24, subsequently moving to Germany till the age of 32. Therefore Federico should be preferred as first name to Frederick (I re di Sicilia, II emperor of Holy Roman Empire ) while Hohenstaufen is correct as LNAB from his father's family name, transmitted to his successors. On history books he is also often referred as "di Svevia"( = of schwaben" as Hohenstaufens were Dukes of Schwabia).  Federico was also re dei Romani,king of Jerusalem, king of Burgundy, etc.

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Creo que los apellidos van cambiando con las epocas y lugares, incluso algun ancestro pudo cambiarlo por diferencias familiares. Pienso que deberian poder encadenarse las distintas variantes en la misma rama, según como fueron nombrados cada uno de sus integrantes al nacer y adjuntando documentación que asi lo respalde.

Answer 2

Since the borders of countries in Europe shifted from time to time over history I tend to use the name it was at the time of the event. Of course a note could be added giving the current location.