G2G: Stafford -> Staffordshire & Lancastershire -> Lancashire [closed]

Question

I'm not well versed in English locations, much less what someplace was called when, so I go by what the sources say.

For this profile - which had been completely undeveloped - someone added "Lancashire, England" as birth location. Discussion about "why Lancashire?" led to what seems to be project policy going against WikiTree policy, namely: "use their convention not ours".

↑ WikiTree's Location Fields Help page, Location Field Style Guide:

Our guiding principle for location names is the same as the one for Name Fields: "use their conventions instead of ours."

Applied to locations, this means using place names in native languages and using the names that people at the time used, even if they now no longer exist.

Sources call her father "of Stafford" and birth location for her husband/son is Haigh, Lancastershire. So I changed Lancashire, England to Stafford, England for birth location guess & Haigh, Lancastershire for death location guess. But it turns out that Staffordshire & Lancashire are preferred by the England Project. I changed to the project-preferred location name for the Unsourced template & location categories, but I'm uncomfortable changing the datafield entries. Should I change them anyway?

Comments

The other issue with the original profile was there was no location at all in the birth or death location (or dates). I added Lancashire, England uncertain based on what I saw in the record at the time, so that the profile would be more likely to be found by someone who could give it more attention. I may have made the wrong choice, but at least it now has locations (thank you). I am not sure that the research note calling into question my comment to you is necessary, especially now that you have added both a birth and death location.

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I've edited the research notes.

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Thank you

Answer 1

The biography says that her father was "of Bromley, co. Stafford". Since there are several Bromleys in Staffordshire and we don't know which one it was, I have changed "Stafford, England" to "Staffordshire, England". The little evidence there is suggests that it is not the county town of Stafford; and the England Project uses "Staffordshire" rather than the archaic form "county of Stafford" (abbreviated to "co. Stafford").

As far as I know, "Lancastershire" has never existed. The "county of Lancaster" has always been called "Lancashire".

It aids data analysis if location fields have the consistent format "Place, County, England", where "County" is the accepted standard spelling. See https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:England_Project_Profile_Standards#Locations

Comments

Thanks so much Stephen! You've both fixed her profile & clarified things for me :D

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On the broader issue.

The list makes clear that we use modern conventional names for counties  in the location fields. *

This makes things uniform and categorisaton is easier   but  does break the rule of using their conventions not ours. Perhaps we need  to revisit the guideline about using historic place names.

*e.g. we use Dorset, not Dorsetshire but all the 17th c maps that I know of are headed Dorsetshire ( even the county regiment  are called the Dorsetshires).

Hampshire was often called Southamptonshire . I've seen it on maps and perhaps more importantly since they are often used as sources, in visitations, wills and  manorial surveys.

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I find that very confusing.  We're told to use their conventions, not ours, yet if we use what is in the documents, we're told we're wrong.

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Helen - you say "The list makes clear that we use modern conventional names for counties  in the location fields. * "

If you mean the dropdown list of FamilySearch locations, it does not. From Help: Location Fields ("Automatic Place Name Selections"):

You do not need to accept any of the place name suggestions. They may not be the ideal way to record the place name on WikiTree. See our style rules above. In particular, the suggestions may not be in the person's own language. See the Language Selection page for more explanation.

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No, I don't mean the drop down list. I mean the list of approved county names  at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:England_Project_Profile_Standards#Locations

This appears to say that these names for counties  should be used in location fields.

I actually think that using conventional names is  probably more useful but it doesn't always reflect what is found in  records.

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Stephen just as interesting trivia Lancashire was very commonly called the county of Lancaster in documents.

Technically, people will also tell you that it was not a county because it did not have a count/earl, but the practical reality of how people write and talk does not always obey such logic. I suppose that for a very long time many people in England have seen county and shire as having basically the same meaning.

Answer 2

It might not be about style but geography.

Stafford is the main city of Staffordshire, so it would be Stafford, Staffordshire, England

Comments

But that would have to KNOW that the person was from Stafford the city, and not Stafford the shire.

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That would depend upon the sources. I was explaining the point that it would never be Stafford, England as the original questioner had used for birth location.

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But if those sources actually say "of Stafford" who is to know of that is the city or the shire?  They knew, back in the day - just as those who wrote Salop knew (and most English people today probably know, but folk such as I have had to learn the hard way).  Likewise, whether it ever existed or not, I have seen on documents the placename Lancasterhsire (and a few other places I am told are incorrect).

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Melanie - "Salop" got me too. See https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1288518/what-does-com-mean-in-an-english-location

Answer 3

Hi. My understanding is -

Stafford is the county town of Staffordshire.

Lancaster is the county town of Lancashire.

Perhaps confusingly, 'of Stafford' could refer to either the town of Stafford or the county of Staffordshire, etc.

I think this has been the case since Norman times although the county boundaries have changed.

regards, David

Comments

Lancaster could also often refer to the county, I've found. (For obvious reasons I find myself noticing how the term Lancaster gets used.)