G2G: Policy Discussion - When and What to call Virginia (other than Virginia)

Question

NOTE: Closed... Consensus was reached: this is too complicated. See [this G2G post] explaining why only date needed is July 4, 1776.

Hi & welcome to the Policy Discussion for what to call Virginia & when to call her that. For the previous, closed discussion (that was meant as guidance but was obviously premature) see [this closed G2G post]. If you're working on the Clean-a-Thon & hit a Virginia profile, check out the [Clean-a-Thon Guidance . . . for Team Virginia G2G] and also the [Team Virginia space page] & [join Team Virginia G2G post],

Now for the fun part. This G2G is posted to propose policy for Virginia locations in accordance with https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Developing_New_Rules

The first answer is the initial proposal. The second answer will be the one we edit into policy.

Thanks!

NOTE: Closed... Consensus was reached: this is too complicated. See [this G2G post] explaining why only date needed is July 4, 1776.

Comments

I think if we debate rules for how to deal with colonies we need to come up with rules that can be applied equally to other colonies in other parts of the world. In my opinion the proposed rules are missing something: whose colonies are we talking about? Do we in our Anglo-American fashion just assume that when we talk about the former English/British colonies in America everybody worldwide will understand that we talk about what became the USA? Would all the Central and South American colonies also just be called something like "Brasil Colonial, America" or "Virreinato del Perú, America"? How about other parts of the world? The Portuguese colonies in Asia were called "Estado da Índia", or how about Ghana? Again the Portuguese called it "Costa do Ouro", are we going to call it "Costa do Ouro, Africa"? At least the Swedes (Svenska Guldkusten), Danes (Danske Guldkyst) and Dutch (Nederlandse Bezittingen ter Kuste van Guinea) had the decency of putting their country name in the name of their colonies there, but what about the Germans: Groß Friedrichsburg, Afrika.

I think any policy for one part of the world ought to be able to be used equally for other parts of the world.

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Whatever is decided let's be sure the place locations suggested when editing in a browser match.  Right now for pre-1776, it always suggests Virginia, British Colonial America so if that is not the consensus, can we get the suggestions updated to match what the policy style is?

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I do not believe that we can change the FamilySearch database, which is the source for the dropdown suggestions (including "British Colonial America") & in some cases are NOT in accordance with WikiTree style guidelines. As noted in the proposed policy ". . . it's what the person themselves would have used at the time of the event. But in most cases that's unknowable, so we shouldn't obsess too much."

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Can we stipulate that "Virginia" means Virginia?

Is there another place in the entire world called Virginia? (Try explaining to someone not from the US the location of Virginia City.)

Is just citing "Virginia" ever wrong, even if it doesn't specifically name the surrounding environment or temporal political situation?

If someone cites Moscow or Paris, don't we know what they mean unless those words are immediately followed by the words Idaho or Kentucky, respectively?

Cheers, Virginia! - K.I.S.S.

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Bill - you may have missed the following notice on this question:

NOTE: Closed... Consensus was reached: this is too complicated. See [this G2G post] explaining why only date needed is July 4, 1776.

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2 July 1776

Answer 1

NOTE: Closed... Consensus was reached: this is too complicated. See [this G2G post] explaining why only date needed is July 4, 1776.

Proposed: NOTE: Proposal has been revised. (See [this answer] instead.)

First, what to call her when:

• Virginia ->> Colony of Virginia, America  >before June 29, 1776
• Virginia ->> Commonwealth of Virginia, America  >June 29, 1776 to before June 25, 1788
• Virginia ->> Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of America  >June 25, 1788 - before April 17, 1861
• Virginia ->> Commonwealth of Virginia, Confederate States of America  > April 17, 1861 - April 9, 1865
• Virginia ->> Commonwealth of Virginia > after April 9, 1865 - before March 2, 1867
• Virginia ->> Commonwealth of Virginia, First Military District (Reconstruction Era, USA) > March 2, 1867 - before January 16, 1870
• Virginia ->> Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of America  > January 16, 1870 -
• With the following caveat suggested by Team Wiki:

Unless a location name is clearly wrong, it should be at the discretion of the profile manager (or the project, if it's a PPP) whether it's Virginia, or Virginia Colony, British North America, etc. It shouldn't be something that other people go in and change.

We should all agree on the ultimate rule: that it's what the person themselves would have used at the time of the event. But in most cases that's unknowable, so we shouldn't obsess too much.

Next: What goes before Colony of or Commonwealth of Virginia?

Include "Parish" or "County" when adding to a Virginia location. This is important because many early Virginia parishes and counties had the same name. See (known) existing parish & county categories listed under Category:Virginia Parishes (parishes) and Category:Virginia Colony / Category:Virginia Colony (counties). See also the [table on this Virginia project page]. Please add relevant location categories when editing Virginia profiles. Note that the categories use only Virginia or Virginia Colony. If you want to create a category, first please check with [Virginia Project] or [US Southern Colonies Project], and note that new Parish categories should not include a county name. Also, we are currently not creating additional Virginia Colony county categories, but we can certainly discuss that if you feel one is needed.

Thanks!

edit: added at top: NOTE: Proposal has been revised. (See [this answer] instead.)

NOTE: Closed... Consensus was reached: this is too complicated. See [this G2G post] explaining why only date needed is July 4, 1776.

Comments

The following information is provided for where names/dates came from:

• Colony of Virginia (seen on many historical documents)
• America (gleaned as least controversial/most preferred from multiple G2G discussions and seen on many historical documents, although often as "the Americas")
• June 25, 1788, the date Virginia ratified the Constitution (historic fact found multiple locations)
• Wikipedia: The convention . . . on June 12 adopted, George Mason's Declaration of Rights, a precursor to the United States Bill of Rights. On June 29, the convention approved the first Constitution of Virginia. The convention chose Patrick Henry as the first governor of the new Commonwealth of Virginia, and he was inaugurated on June 29, 1776. Thus, Virginia had a functioning republican constitution before July 4, 1776.^[19] (June 29, 1776 date/Commonwealth name)
• ''Catechism on the History of the Confederate States of America: 1861-1865" (CSA name/date), published by the United Daughters of the Confederacy (October 1954, reprinted 2007)
• http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/First_Military_District & https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Civil_War_Project_Resource_Page (name)
• https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Civil_War_Project_Resource_Page (3/2/1867 date)

 

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Liz,

You have not responded to my answer below.  Your dates clearly are incorrect for determining "When and What to call Virginia".

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Joe - I've posted the proposed policy for discussion. It's being discussed.

Cheers, Liz

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I apologize for "revising & running" - I'll be offline (again) for the next several hours, and I really would like to participate in the Clean-a-Thon some, so - Joe and others - please don't be surprised or offended if I do not respond to a response.

Thanks, Liz

Answer 2

NOTE: Closed... Consensus was reached: this is too complicated. See [this G2G post] explaining why only date needed is July 4, 1776.

To be edited.

Current as of April 24, 2017, 15:29 (Eastern time)
Last edited by Liz Shifflett (Noland-165) to add WV - see [comment]
Previously edited April 23, 2017, 15:29 (ET) by Liz Shifflett (Noland-165): trying again. (see [comment])
Previously edited April 18, 2017, 10:17 am (ET) by Liz Shifflett (Noland-165) to clean up errors/missing links & improve wording

The Database Errors project flags as an error "Virginia, USA" and "Virginia, United States" when in conjunction with dates prior to July 4, 1776 and provides in the error report (under Info):

Virginia, USA -> Colony of Virginia

Please include the url https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Virginia_Place_Names in your explanation when you make this change. 

Additional potential errors and their appropriate corrections:

(May be) Flagged as wrong in db_error reports:	Minimum to correct the flagged errors:
Virginia (prior to 1585)	delete Virginia[1]
Virginia, British Colonial America (any time)	delete British Colonial America, see next[1]
Virginia, USA/United States (prior to July 4, 1776)	replace USA/United States with Colony[1]
Virginia Colony/Colony of Virginia (after July 4, 1776)	replace with USA[1]
Virginia, USA/United States (April 17, 1861- March 2, 1867)	remove USA/United States[1]

West Virginia (prior to June 20, 1863)

delete "West"[2]

1. include https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Virginia_Place_Names url in explanation
2. add location categories, to include both Virginia and West Virginia county categories (for known counties). See county information here.

First, what to call her when:

• Colony of Virginia, America  >before June 29, 1776
• Commonwealth of Virginia, America  >June 29, 1776 to before June 25, 1788
• Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of America  >June 25, 1788 - before April 17, 1861
• Commonwealth of Virginia, Confederate States of America  > April 17, 1861 - April 9, 1865
• Commonwealth of Virginia > after April 9, 1865 - before March 2, 1867
• Commonwealth of Virginia, First Military District (Reconstruction Era, USA) > March 2, 1867 - before January 16, 1870
• Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of America  > January 16, 1870 -

Note: Unless a location name is clearly wrong, it should be at the discretion of the profile manager (or the project, if it's a PPP) whether it is Virginia, or Virginia Colony, British North America, etc. It should not be something that other people go in and change.

The ultimate rule in WikiTree is to "use what the persons themselves would have used at the time of the event." The longer ago that time was, the more likely that will be unknowable, which is why it should be left to the discretion of the profile manager(s) when clear proof is not available.

Next: What goes before "Colony of" or "Commonwealth of" Virginia?

Include "Parish" or "County" when adding to a Virginia location. This is important because many early Virginia parishes and counties had the same name. See (known) existing parish & county categories listed under Category:Virginia Parishes (parishes) and Category:Virginia Colony / Category:Virginia (counties). See also the [table on this Virginia project page]. Please add relevant location categories when editing Virginia profiles. Note that the categories use only Virginia or Virginia Colony. If you want to create a category, first please check with [Virginia Project] or [US Southern Colonies Project], and note that new Parish categories should not include a county name. Also, we are currently not creating additional Virginia Colony county categories, but we can certainly discuss that if you feel one is needed.

Thanks!

NOTE: Closed... Consensus was reached: this is too complicated. See [this G2G post] explaining why only date needed is July 4, 1776.

Comments

Liz,

For the 46 other states and 3 other commonwealths (after whatever appropriate date), we only use the entity's name - i.e., CityName, CountyName, Pennsylvania, United States of America.  Is this wrong, and we should use "state of" or "commonwealth of" in front of the name or is Virginia a different kind of animal from the rest?

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I don't know the answer for other states/commonwealths, I only know what I've researched for Virginia and experienced trying to add location categories for Virginia profiles. I had requested a few years back (when I discovered that the double names in location fields weren't errors) that "county" be included when appropriate but was overruled. I know from my own experience and the difficulties I am encountering with early Virginia profiles that leaving off county (or parish, if appropriate) for Virginia locations causes major problems.

Cheers, Liz

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Commonwealth is something not used on wikitree. It is used on 133 profiles which is nothing.

http://wikitree.sdms.si/function/WTWebProfileSearch/Profiles.htm?Query=Commonwealth

Some numbers for Virginia

345222 Virginia

107517 Virginia, USA

80624 Virginia, United States

2947 Virginia, United States of America

6043 Virginia colony

68896 VA

9744 VA USA

We have 13.662.267 locations entered. 560.000 have Virginia or VA in it.

Without West or WV in name 371.654

Here are most common location field values (more than 100 instances) http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/wikitree/VA%20100.htm

(more than 10 instances) http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/wikitree/VA%2010.htm

(more than 2 instances) http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/wikitree/Virginia;VA%202.htm

(all instances) http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/wikitree/Virginia;VA%20All.htm

With West or WV in name:

(more than 2 instances) http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/wikitree/Virginia;VA%202%20West.htm

(all instances) http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/wikitree/Virginia;VA%20All%20West.htm

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As I've been trying to participate in the Clean-a-Thon and lead the Virginia Spring Cleaners, I realized something -

We've been trying to come to consensus on a single answer for two different things, to serve two different purposes.

The Database Errors Project needs a "what is wrong" and "what fixes it" consensus.

Virginia genealogists want a reference with dates and names that has been vetted.

A single solution for both is not feasible, nor would it be particularly useful for either purpose.

The need that requires WikiTree consensus is the first one: what should be flagged as wrong in a db_errors report and what should be done to fix it. I have edited the proposed guidance to address that need.

I have published a space page to meet the second need (see [this page]).

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I like updated proposal. It is clear and simple. After CAT I will analyse number of suggested locations. Such approach could also be the base for Wikitree+ locatio database similar to FS locatin database.

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West Virginia before 1863 is also an error. From [Category:West Virginia]:

West Virginia was admitted to the Union on June 20, 1863

West Virginia project should weigh in on addition to table, but a starting point suggestion:

(May be) Flagged as wrong in db_error reports:	Minimum to correct the flagged errors:
West Virginia (prior to June 20, 1863)	delete "West"<ref>add location categories, to include both Virginia and West Virginia county categories (for known counties)<ref>See more [https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Virginia#WVA here]</ref>

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couldn't get the new row to align correctly in G2G. See it on the "Virginia Place Names" page: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Virginia_Place_Names#Policy_in_Progress

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OK, now that the CAT is over...

Liz, your proposed policy still completely ignores the fact that Virginia was undeniably part of the United States of America beginning on 4 July 1776.  Your dates, while certainly important and interesting, have no bearing on the name of the country, and when USA should follow Virginia.

I have already provided the overwhelming evidence and will do so again if you wish.  Your proposed dates are overly complicated and still incorrect.

Before 4 July 1776:  Virginia (or Colony of Virginia)

After 4 July 1776, Virginia, United States of America

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Joe - I have asked that another WikiTree Leader continue to attempt to reach consensus on this, as I do not believe that you and I will ever be able to "agree to disagree". I'll abide by whatever is decided, but I continue to believe that you are wrong in your assertions that July 4 is the only correct answer.

Pax,
Liz

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Tell me who and where I can put my complete reasoning.  This discussion is spread across multiple threads.

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perhaps you could post it as a new question and then you would only need to post the link to it from any other discussions you find on the subject.

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OK Liz,  I posted a new question with all of my reasoning and arguments.

Answer 3

PLEASE, let's not use "Commonwealth of Virginia" for any date after the United States of America is deemed to have existed.

For time periods when "Commonwealth of Virginia" may have thought of itself as an independent nation-state, the "Commonwealth" wording might have merit, but after it became part of the larger nation, we should simply have "Virginia, United States".

If we insist on "Commonwealth of" in the name of this U.S. state, then I expect we'll also need to start using other official names like "Commonwealth of Massachusetts," "State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations," and "Commonwealth of Kentucky." That is a recipe for annoyance, frustration, irrelevance -- and driving people away.

Comments

In keeping with... call it what they call it.... if you look at Virginia's government web page... they call themselves a Commonwealth... personally, I'm good with Virginia by itself.. but if you are going to apply the rules.. you need to include Commonwealth.

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What is wrong with calling Virginia "Virginia" ?  Outsiders or the casual Wikitree user (a non member who is searching for information in Google for example)  is not generally going to understand or even care about what Virginia was called by inhabitants of Virginia pre-1776.  And I'm guessing very few of those pre-1776 ancestors are around to even notice the confusion we may be causing anyway.  I'm wondering if the common man of the time would have actually used anything other than "Virginia" in the normal course of conversation.  Not that I am opposed to historic accuracy but what I see coming  is another complicated set of naming guidelines that is probably going to result in hundred of Db errors because most casual Wikitree users will not take the time to lookup the correct naming pattern for the period of time covered in a profile they may not be sourcing anyway.  This naning plan will appeal to the historian and purists among us but will be looked at as an inconveniece or obstacle by many users IMO.

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This is good point. If I ask someone, where is he from, answer would be Virginia with maybe US and I think that is enough. I am from Slovenia, and will never use Republic Slovenia, which is our official name. That is just for legal government documents. You should also try to simplify names as much as possible.

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I agree with you Aleš.  We are taking this name thing too far.

Al Jumahiriyah al Arabiyah al Libiyah ash Shabiyah al Ishtirakiyah al Uzma, also known as Libya...

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الجماهيرية العربية الليبية الشعبية الاشتراكية العظمى‎‎

Answer 4

I have said it in other G2G threads and I will say it again, this is entirely wrong and misguided.  I really don’t understand why on wikitree there is such strong need to identify the controlling political entity of a location in minute detail.  We have lost sight of the fact that this is a location field whose purpose is to tell me where in the world an event happened.  I am beginning to think that Magnus is correct and we should just be entering GPS coordinates.  The simple word Virginia is inherently better than these long formal (and incorrect) names above.

The official “birth date” of the United States of America is 4 July 1776.  Virginia was part of it.  All dates before 4 July 1776 should be Colony of Virginia, or simply Virginia.  All dates from 4 July 1776 on should be Virginia, USA.  Nothing else is acceptable.

Of particular annoyance is the notion that Virginia was not part of the United States before 25 June 1788.  This date is the date that Virginia ratified the United States Constitution and has absolutely no relevance to when Virginia should be called part of the USA – they already were.  They had been since The United States of America declared independence on 4 July 1776.  They had been since the 13 colonies decided to act together with the controlling governmental body being the Continental Congress.  They had been since the Articles of Confederation bound them together with Virginia being the first state to ratify it; article one states that “The stile of this confederacy shall be “The United States of America.”   There can be no denying that Virginia, USA is the name used by the people at the time and is the correct name of the state in this period.

The “original Virginia Constitution of 1776 was enacted in conjunction with the Declaration of Independence by the first thirteen states of the United States of America.”  Every state has its own state constitution and this has no bearing on when to start using USA.

George Mason's Declaration of Rights, have no bearing on the name of the state.

“Commonwealth of Virginia, Confederate States of America  > April 17, 1861 - April 9, 1865” – while I understand this, the Confederacy lost the Civil War and from the standpoint of the USA, Virginia never left the Union.  Just like if we had lost the American Revolution, the colonies would not have been considered to have ever left the British Empire.

“Commonwealth of Virginia, First Military District (Reconstruction Era, USA) > March 2, 1867 - before January 16, 1870” – you are not seriously suggesting this as a name?

“Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of America” – I agree with others who find this unnecessarily long.  We don’t put the words “State of” in front of the name of any other state, or commonwealth in front of the other states whose official name is “Commonwealth of.”

Comments

An issue with formulating a complex policy is that it is more likely to be misunderstood, less likely to recieve genrral consent, harder to apply and enforce, requires more explanation and retraining of those affected, and usually has unforseen and sometimes unwanted results.  In my opinion we would be better off to find the common denominator - the name most commonly used that would apply to all periods of time with the least changes possible.  Virginia has been known by the name "Virginia" since about 1584 and before that it was an emmense area known as Wingandacoa, or Wingina by the native Tidewater populations (Wikipedia).  I vote for keeping any naming policy as simple as possible.  That will make it easier and more likely that members will comply with a naming standardization policy that will apply to all members and not just specialized projects.

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Joe - you and I obviously disagree. As a comment to the proposed guidelines, I have given sources for the dates proposed. I feel as strongly that these are legitimate dates as you do that they are wrong, I've stated what I think would be appropriate and why. You've stated what you think would be appropriate and why.

The end result needs to be a community discussion that arrives at something both Virginia researchers and data doctors can live with. It seems fairly obvious we are a long way from that at the moment.

Any WikiTree Leader can edit the posted answer that is what the community needs to come to concensus with. I am not available to do this until after the Clean-a-Thon.

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I agree with Joe 100%. For the life of me, I do not understand the need to make something as simple as this so complicated. It is like trying to pick the fly specks out of pepper. Wikitree is about the people and how we relate to each other, not the geopolitical arena in which we live. Virginia, at its inception as a colony, spawned the states west of itself over time. I live in Kentucky, in Nelson County. When the first people moved here it was Nelson County, Virginia, Eventually, it became Kentucky. Nelson County fragmented over time, creating dozens of other counties such as Jefferson, Hardin (which split into LaRue County later) and several others. Bottom line, lets keep it simple and use what the person used at the time, with the understanding that it changes over time.

 

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When I first needed to use something other than USA for locations I could not find a standard for the various colonies which became the USA.  I decided I would use what the rest of the world would have called them if I could find out.  I arbitrarily called most of the colonies by their present state name, followed by "American Colony" because the British had colonies all over the world.  I did allow for early Virginia Company, and Virginia Royal Colony.  New Amsterdam was a Dutch Colony, and Massachusetts had more than one name, etc.  I see no need for a British Colony name, as the British apparently considered North America as the American Colonies. Perhaps I need to read more British history and personal papers for them.  Marg

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Hi Margaret -

This discussion is closed. You may wish to post your comment on the discussion that replaced it: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/384562/birth-of-the-usa-and-virginia-usa